RO: Palestinian jailed for being Palestinian

[Malthus]

@sleeping

Except that not only is this law on the books, but the judge said

Although conceding that the sex was consensual, district court judge Tzvi Segal concluded that the law had a duty to protect women from “smooth-tongued criminals who can deceive innocent victims at an unbearable price”

The same law is on the books in many other places, including some US states.

What the judge said is that people who lie to get sex are “smooth tounged criminals”. How exactly is that some sort of proof of racism in society?

Even if this particular woman is as racist as a barrel of KKK members, it is her right to choose not to sleep with someone - because she doesn’t like his skin colour or his ancestry or whatever.

and a former Israeli ministry official says

“In the context of Israeli society, you can see that some women would feel very strongly that they had been violated by someone who says he is Jewish but is not,” said a former senior justice ministry official.

So either the judge is racist, or he is indicating that–in his opinion as a judge–Israeli society is racist, or both.

What a “former Israeli minister official” says has no bearing on what the Judge ordered.

Nevertheless, he’s merely stating a truism - that many women in Israeli society would feel unhappy about having sex with someone who is not Jewish, if they had been lied to about the matter. That would be true outside of Israel, too.

For that matter, many Christians would have a problem having sex with someone who is lying about being Christian, and many Indians would have a problem with having sex with someone who is lying about being Indian.

Is this somehow controversial? :smack:

[Onomatopoeia]

@Laudenum

Palestinian jailed for rape after claiming to be Jewish

Basically, a very naughty Palestinian pretended to be Jewish to a girl he met in the street, and they had sex like ten minutes later.

She found out he is an Arab, and he is going to jail.

For rape.

Basically she is such a racist that it is rape for her to have dirtied herself by having sex with an Arab.

1980’s South Africa is chortling.

Disgusting, and one of a piece with other exhibitions of rationalized discrimination and racism, not to mention hypocrisy, sanctioned in Israeli law. Color me unsurprised.

[Onomatopoeia]

@Malthus

The same law is on the books in many other places, including some US states.

I didn’t know that but, okay, when was it last enforced?

@Malthus

What the judge said is that people who lie to get sex are “smooth tounged criminals”. How exactly is that some sort of proof of racism in society?

That quote is not proof of racism, no. I don’t see, however, how lying to get sex makes one a criminal. If that were the case, just about every man on the planet would be a criminal. So it’s not “people” who lie to get sex that’s the problem, it’s the type of people who are lying that determines the criminality, which is discriminatory.

@Malthus

Even if this particular woman is as racist as a barrel of KKK members, it is her right to choose not to sleep with someone - because she doesn’t like his skin colour or his ancestry or whatever.

Obviously she liked what she saw, and obviously she liked what he said, so much so that she opened her legs to him within minutes of meeting, which exposes her as no paragon of virtue in the first place. I agree that it is her right to choose who she sleeps with, and she chose.

@Malthus

What a “former Israeli minister official” says has no bearing on what the Judge ordered.

Nevertheless, he’s merely stating a truism - that many women in Israeli society would feel unhappy about having sex with someone who is not Jewish, if they had been lied to about the matter. That would be true outside of Israel, too.

For that matter, many Christians would have a problem having sex with someone who is lying about being Christian, and many Indians would have a problem with having sex with someone who is lying about being Indian.

None of which should send someone to jail, especially when we know damned well the penalty would not be the same if the roles were reversed.

From the linked article…

@Gideon Levy

I would like to raise only one question with the judge. What if this guy had been a Jew who pretended to be a Muslim and had sex with a Muslim woman. Would he have been convicted of rape? The answer is: of course not.

@Malthus

Is this somehow controversial? :smack:

No, sadly, but it should be.

[Malthus]

@Onomatopoeia

I didn’t know that but, okay, when was it last enforced?

There is a lengthy article (sorry, PDF) on this topic entitled “RAPE BY FRAUD AND RAPE BY COERCION”, 64 Brook. L. Rev. 39. Apparently, it is a reasonably major topic.

www.justdetention.org/pdf/Rape%20by%20Fraud.pdf

That quote is not proof of racism, no. I don’t see, however, how lying to get sex makes one a criminal. If that were the case, just about every man on the planet would be a criminal. So it’s not “people” who lie to get sex that’s the problem, it’s the type of people who are lying that determines the criminality, which is discriminatory.

That isn’t even true in the Israeli case, let alone generally. The leading Israeli case involved a Jewish guy who was pretending to be a gov’t official to get sex; another, about a Jewish guy pretending to be a famous surgeon to get sex.

This is the first case where the lie is about being Jewish.

Obviously she liked what she saw, and obviously she liked what he said, so much so that she opened her legs to him within minutes of meeting, which exposes her as no paragon of virtue in the first place. .

Is this not perilously close to ‘she’s a slut, and so can’t be raped’?

I agree that it is her right to choose who she sleeps with, and she chose.

The basis of the law (agree with it or not) is that a choice based on a lie isn’t a real choice; that concent obtained by fraud is no more “consent” than concent obtained by coercion (see article cited above).

None of which should send someone to jail, especially when we know damned well the penalty would not be the same if the roles were reversed.

I agree that "rape by fraud’ is a bad law, subject to abuse. I do not agree that if a Jewish guy pretended to be an Arab to screw an Arab woman, that an Israeli judge would inevitably find him innocent based on this law (particularly if this precedent survives appeal!)

Fact is, there are many things wrong with Israeli society, but their judiciary often rules in ways that would surprise those who automatically assume Israel is evil.

No, sadly, but it should be.

What, women should want to sleep with people who are not of their religion or ethnic group?

I wholeheartedly agree (absent the lying about it bit), but I find nothing “aparthied like” about the fact that they generally don’t. If it was, the whole damned world is "apatheied like’.

[FinnAgain]

So the OP starts by lying about the basic facts of the issue, this is good.

Then Damuri, after his admission that he’s a reflexive anti-Israeli bigot (which is my fault, of course) who has to fight not to simply shoehorn any new information into his “I hate Israel!” narrative, spews:

@Damuri_Ajashi

And people still think Carter is an anti-semite for comparing this situation to Apartheid. :boggle:

Of course, the actual facts are that, in Israel, it’s a crime to get sex by lying about who you are. If you say you’re a movie star and you’re not, if you say you’re an astronaut and you’re not, if you say you’re a millionaire and you’re not, if you say you’re a certain religion and you’re not. And, lo and behold, he twists that into “ZOMG! You can’t lie about who you are in order to get sex??? APARTHEID!!!”

Sigh.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

This judge sounds like the modern Israeli equivalent of a Jim Crow redneck from the 1950’s. How typical is that? “Unbearable price?” What was the price? “Serious romantic relationship?” She was a pickup at a bar, is he fucking kidding?

My, how quickly your morals shift Dio (but we already knew that). Yes, the reference to a “serious romantic relationship” is one that might result in the conception of a child. An “unbearable price” might very well be the birth of a child to someone who a woman wouldn’t have consented to bear children with if she’d known his true identity. Of course, I’m sure your sliding moral scale will slip back to some other loopy value later, and you won’t be advocating that it’s totally cool to lie to women and potentially impregnate them. This is just a ‘special’ situation.

But for this ‘special’ situation, lying to a woman to get her into a situation where children might result, and the woman objecting that you used false pretenses to get her into bed is totalllly like Jim Crow. Exactly like Jim Crow, actually. identical.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

Is there any chance at all that this charge would be made if the “races” were reversed?

Yes, as it’s been made against Jews who were impersonating various professions to which they did not belong.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

Also, does this “rape by deception” thing apply to Jewish boys who tell girls they have Lamborginis or that they’re in the Mossad?

Finding out the facts before you bluster on about Jim Crow style racism is hard.

[Laudenum]

@FinnAgain

So the OP starts by lying about the basic facts of the issue, this is good.

How did I lie?

Leaving aside the fact that my OP was written with written in such a way as to force posters to read the article that I linked to prior to responding (the article contains a full, and I think fair account), the fact remains that the only reason that this man is being prosecuted is because he is Palestinian - according to a different account his only ‘lie’ was calling himself Daniel, thereby implying that he was Jewish.

Nothing in my OP is factually incorrect as far as I can see - the judge’s reasoning is clear and ugly.

[VinylTurnip]

@FinnAgain

Of course, the actual facts are that, in Israel, it’s a crime to get sex by lying about who you are. If you say you’re a movie star and you’re not, if you say you’re an astronaut and you’re not, if you say you’re a millionaire and you’re not, if you say you’re a certain religion and you’re not.

Obviously, since Israeli prisons teem with impostrous movie star millionaire astronauts.

[Mince]

@Bryan_Ekers

Actually, since the Israeli woman (almost certainly) has had military training and the Palestinian man (almost certainly) has not, I figure a fairer (or at least more entertaining) solution would be to Thunderdome it.

Um, as a society, we’ve moved beyond Thunderdome.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@FinnAgain

Yes, as it’s been made against Jews who were impersonating various professions to which they did not belong.

It has not been used against Jews for lying about what race they are to get a Palestinian chick in the sack, nor would it ever be.

This guy was not impersonating a doctor or a government agent or anything to trick this chick. He just gave a Jewish name to a girl he picked up at a bar. It’s beyond disingenuos to pretend any prosecution would occur if the ethnicities were reversed and you know it. It’s pure, undisguised Jim Crow. I’m not surprised you would defend this garbage, though.

[FinnAgain]

@VinylTurnip

Obviously, since Israeli prisons teem with impostrous movie star millionaire astronauts.

Well, no, the obvious part would be that lying about your identity to get sex is illegal regardless of what lie you use and no matter who you are.

@Diogenes_the_Cynic

It has not been used against Jews for lying about what race they are to get a Palestinian chick in the sack, nor would it ever be.

This guy was not impersonating a doctor or a government agent or anything to trick this chick. He just gave a Jewish name to a girl he picked up at a bar. It’s beyond disingenuos to pretend any prosecution would occur if the ethnicities were reversed and you know it. It’s pure, undisguised Jim Crow. I’m not surprised you would defend this garbage, though.

Dio, shut your face and go try to be less of an idiot, please. I get it, you’re a raging anti-Israel bigot and you’re willing to lie and imagine whatever the fuck you want as long as it reinforces your bigotry. The law would “never be” enforced if it was a Jew being charged, and we know this because, well, because you’re a bigot who hates Israel so you made it up. And it’s disingenous to pretend that your bigoted fantasy isn’t factual because, well, your bigotry is the really cool kind.
You really are a disgusting bigoted freak though, just because you hate a nationality and not an ethnicity doesn’t make it “okay”.

Idiot.

[The_Facts]

The jews are racist? Why, I’m shocked!

Poor dude is lucky they didn’t try to forcibly circumcize him.

[FinnAgain]

@The_Facts

The jews are racist? Why, I’m shocked!

It sure is interesting what sort of people these threads almost always bring out.
Yes “The Jews” are all sorts of bad things, preach it!

[Jackmannii]

This article on the ramifications of rape by fraud mentions a 1993 case in Israel, where a man named Raine Marcus who posed as a rabbi, was found guilty in nine cases of sexual assault and fraud (supposedly he made claims about “curing” the women).*

Probably something to do with Jim Crow. :dubious:
*of what, it is hard to tell since I can’t find details of the case online.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@Mince

Um, as a society, we’ve moved beyond Thunderdome.

And as Jews, to go by the evangelical goyim when they start yapping about the Rapture, we’ll be the ones they’ve left behind.

[sqweels]

The point is that she gave her consent. Throughout the sex act, consent was maintained.

A woman cannot retroactively withdraw her consent because a man cannot retroactively… withdraw.

[Ionizer]

And with society (in general) calling rape a violent and horrible act, why is this even called rape?!? ~Deceptive of him? Yes, of course. Typical guy, imho, or so the saying goes. Violent (as per ‘rape’ connotations - not at all. Not even close. I wonder if that woman said that she that she had never gone down so fast (“I don’t normally do this until I know a Jew really well, ya know!” You are super-special to have me do this for you). Every bit as culpable if so. We all know how every woman is a vessel of purity and chasteness at all times - aren’t they? (sarcasm here, but I heard it often when I knew otherwise).

At least the guy ain’t getting stones thrown at his head 'til death - there’s that aspect going for him.

Too bad Frank Zappa is gone as there might be a great song in this re: Catholic Girls (with their tiny little moustache…) Joe’s Garage tune, iirc Not sure why that song just became an earworm, but I also hear the Central Scrutinizer wanting to speak, too.

[FinnAgain]

@Jackmannii

Probably something to do with Jim Crow.

Well, duh. We know that if a woman went to the police and made a formal complaint of rape via deception that they’d first ask “Are you Jewish?” and then ask “Was he Muslim” and then, and only then, would they choose whether or not to act. The only reason they’d bring charges against any Jew is if he used fraud to trick someone who was an even bigger Jew than he was into having sex. The guy who pretended to be a neurosurgeon? They discovered that he went to temple only on the High Holy Days, and the chicks he banged were totally in at least every other Shabbat, so they threw the book at the guy. The guy who pretended to have pull with the housing authority? He never even had a bar mitzvah service and one of the women he tricked into having sex was a rabbi’s daughter and she kept kosher! (The bailiffs had to pull the judges off the man’s limp body after they beat him unconscious and tried to tear him limb from limb).

And, of course, if a Muslim woman were to ever go in and claim that a Jew lied to her to get her in the sack, the police would point to the “hah hah, we hate Muslims” part of the statute and indicate that they would, therefore, not investigate the matter further.
And then they’d rape her.

We know this, because Israelis are all vile racist sneaky lying nogoodniks.
And part of what makes them so horrible, we know, is that they all think something like that about Palestinians (we know). What nerve!

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@Jackmannii

This article on the ramifications of rape by fraud mentions a 1993 case in Israel, where a man named Raine Marcus who posed as a rabbi, was found guilty in nine cases of sexual assault and fraud (supposedly he made claims about “curing” the women).*

Probably something to do with Jim Crow. :dubious:

This does not involve deception about race, but about religious authority.

NONE of this shit should be illegal, but this doesn’t even involve the kind coercive manipulation that law was designed to prosecute

@FinnAgain

Dio, shut your face and go try to be less of an idiot, please. I get it, you’re a raging anti-Israel bigot and you’re willing to lie and imagine whatever the fuck you want as long as it reinforces your bigotry. The law would “never be” enforced if it was a Jew being charged, and we know this because, well, because you’re a bigot who hates Israel so you made it up. And it’s disingenous to pretend that your bigoted fantasy isn’t factual because, well, your bigotry is the really cool kind.
You really are a disgusting bigoted freak though, just because you hate a nationality and not an ethnicity doesn’t make it “okay”

Saying he “lied about his identity” because he gave a fake name to a bar hook up is disingenuous on your part, and you know damn good and well there would be no prosecution if the races were reversed.

hell, they originally wanted to harge this kid with forcible rape – FORCIBLE, just because he was an Arab kid banging a Jewish girl. Don’t tell me that’s not Jim Crow.

[Mince]

@Bryan_Ekers

And as Jews, to go by the evangelical goyim when they start yapping about the Rapture, we’ll be the ones they’ve left behind.

Yeah, well, you bust a deal, you face the wheel.

[Diogenes_the_Cynic]

@FinnAgain

And, of course, if a Muslim woman were to ever go in and claim that a Jew lied to her to get her in the sack, the police would point to the “hah hah, we hate Muslims” part of the statute and indicate that they would, therefore, not investigate the matter further.
And then they’d rape her.

We know this, because Israelis are all vile racist sneaky lying nogoodniks.
And part of what makes them so horrible, we know, is that they all think something like that about Palestinians (we know). What nerve!

No one said anything about “all Israelis” and your histrionic charges of bigotry are neither true nor an effective defense of this prosecution.

Israel certainly is unduly influenced by bullying, bigoted racist ultra-orthodox factions, though, and this judge is an example. This is not how this law was supposed to be applied and you need to take the beam out of your own fucking eye before you look for the splinters in others.