# RO: Police shoot, kill mentally ill teenager **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 8, 2014, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311 "2014-01-08T20:55:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/1 "2014-01-08T20:55:48Z")
[http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/investigation-north-carolina-kid-killed-cops-article-1.1568523](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/investigation-north-carolina-kid-killed-cops-article-1.1568523) > [@](#): > > Keith Vidal, 18, of Boiling Springs Lake, Fl., was shot by police on Sunday. The teenager was weilding a screwdriver when his terrified parents phoned police for help. They were hoping to have police get the boy medical help, but had their son slain by cops. > > North Carolina authorities have vowed to investigate the police-involved shooting of a mentally ill teenager. > > Read more: [North Carolina officials vow to investigate teenager killed by police – New York Daily News](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/investigation-north-carolina-kid-killed-cops-article-1.1568523#ixzz2pqHOt5UN) This story makes me fucking sick. Once again, the police prove how inherently corrupt, immoral, and unconcerned about the citizens they pretend to protect. It’s shoot first, ask questions later with them. Seriously…how fucking dangerous is a 90-lb. child wielding a SCREWDRIVER??? Are the poor little LEO’s afraid of getting a minor flesh wound? Could anyone, even a perfectly sane & well-trained adult even cause major damage with a hand tool alone, against a cop with a vest and a tazer? I hope and pray whoever pulled the trigger goes to jail for life for FIRST DEGREE MURDER or at least second degree. But who am I kidding, the guilty cop will only get a slap on the wrist and will probably smile viciously at the grieving family whenever he drives by their house. Cops are fucking EVIL like that. :mad: ETA: CNN report: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owl6ZEZK770](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owl6ZEZK770) ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/2 "2014-01-08T21:23:27Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Seriously…how fucking dangerous is a 90-lb. child wielding a SCREWDRIVER??? Are the poor little LEO’s afraid of getting a minor flesh wound? Could anyone, even a perfectly sane & well-trained adult even cause major damage with a hand tool alone, against a cop with a vest and a tazer? I’m not going to defend the cops here - I have no familiarity with the case. But 90-lb child with a screwdriver can deliver a fatal wound; it’s basically a knife wielded by young man. If I caught a cop by surprise I’m sure I could kill them with a screwdriver. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/3 "2014-01-08T21:37:19Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Once again, the police prove how inherently corrupt, immoral, and unconcerned about the citizens they pretend to protect. Allow me to be the first to compliment your impressively broad brush. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/4 "2014-01-08T21:42:23Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > If I caught a cop by surprise I’m sure I could kill them with a screwdriver. Maybe you could, maybe you couldn’t. But I can’t see how any untrained, unfocused, upset small child (or young adult who FAIAP resembles a small child) could pose any more than a 5% threat. If the kid was holding a loaded gun, or even a sharp knife, maybe. \*\* But it’s a policeman’s job to put themselves in potentially life threatening situations.\*\* Firemen risk their lives all the time to save lives – I’ve never heard of a fireman refusing to enter a burning building because there’s a 5% chance the house might collapse, screw that screaming baby upstairs. Police, on the other hand, put other people’s lives at risk far more than they ever risk their own. The only reason I think we should not ban police entirely is because the donut economy would utterly collapse. ---
**Author:** ![Sicks\_Ate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Sicks\_Ate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sicks_Ate)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/5 "2014-01-08T21:44:33Z")
I’ve heard 100 cops says “I’ll do whatever I need to do to go home at night.” IMHO, sometimes this is not the correct attitude. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/6 "2014-01-08T21:54:56Z")
As others have just said: you haven’t given us enough information to judge the case meaningfully. Not guilty, for lack of effective prosecution. Next time, bring evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/7 "2014-01-08T22:00:34Z")
At 18 he was technically a teenager but he was also an adult. Although I suppose calling him an adult doesn’t help the ‘cops are killers’ theme nearly as well. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/8 "2014-01-08T22:04:29Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Police, on the other hand, put other people’s lives at risk far more than they ever risk their own. Got some stats to back that up? I’m aware that roughly 150 police officers are killed in the line of duty every year, but I don’t know how many civilians are killed by police officers. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/9 "2014-01-08T22:12:07Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > \*\* But it’s a policeman’s job to put themselves in potentially life threatening situations.\*\* It is not their job to die because they refuse to use the weapons given to them over some misguided sense of machismo. They get into life threatening situations, and they have a right to go home at night. The person threatening the life of the officer does not have precedence there. Anyway, all you’re going to hear right now is the family’s side, which is naturally going to be skewed as far as possible to depict the officer as a monster. When the hysteria dies down, we’ll get more of the story, and it may well have been a really bad shoot, or the kid may have honestly threatened the life of the officer. I’ll also add the comment: If you need the police to deal with someone who is acting crazy and holding a weapon, it may end very badly for the other guy. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/10 "2014-01-08T22:12:10Z")
There are some details that looked like they merit some additional consideration. According to the family, it was the 3rd cop to arrive that escalated the situation, and the shooting occurred within a minute or two of his arrival (and tens of minutes after the arrival of the first two cops, who were trying to talk the kid down). The first two cops have been cleared by their departments and there doesn’t seem to be a problem there, but the 3rd is on paid administrative leave, which is not unusual after a shooting. We’ve had similar problems between Houston PD and people with mental problems in the past. It looks like education is the best policy. When the police were given better training to deal with such people (like not jumping quite as quickly to the use of force), we got better outcomes all around. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/11 "2014-01-08T22:14:00Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Seriously…how fucking dangerous is a 90-lb. child wielding a SCREWDRIVER??? Pretty damned dangerous, particularly if he’s deranged, as this poor kid seemed to be. Sad ending to a sad story, but not one that would have been improved had a cop been stabbed the fuck up. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/12 "2014-01-08T22:41:50Z")
[Another story](http://www.examiner.com/article/parents-call-for-help-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teen-after-he-is-subdued) on the incident. The father’s version of what happened: > [@](#): > > “Murder. They murdered our son for no reason,” Wilsey said. “Everything was going good, then this fat cop from Southport walks in the room, walks around the corner, says, ‘We don’t have time for this. Tase that kid now. Let’s get him out of here.’” > > Wilsey says his son tried to run when he heard the word tase. > > “The tasers hit him, he fell back. Two officers were on top of him. You know, he’s got the little screwdriver. I mean, I would have went and got the screwdriver from him,” Wilsey said. > > According to Wilsey, Vidal was pinned on the ground by two of the officers and was not posing a threat to anyone when the third officer said, “we don’t have time for this,” and shot Vidal, killing him. ---
**Author:** ![artemis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/91b2a8/32.png) [@artemis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/artemis)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/13 "2014-01-08T22:50:45Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Seriously…how fucking dangerous is a 90-lb. child wielding a SCREWDRIVER??? Are the poor little LEO’s afraid of getting a minor flesh wound? Could anyone, even a perfectly sane & well-trained adult even cause major damage with a hand tool alone, against a cop with a vest and a tazer? Yes, easily. A Kevlar vest offers little protection from puncture weapons such as knives or screwdrivers, and it’s actually quite possible to stab someone to death with a screwdriver (particularly a Phillips head screwdriver which has a sharp point). And you don’t have to be a super-strong person to do it, either… I don’t know if the cops did the right thing in this situation, but I do get very sick of Dopers habitually underestimating the killing power of everyday objects like screwdrivers, baseball bats, and hammers. Methinks some of you would benefit from some extended time shadowing a forensic pathologist. Many, many commonly available items that most people don’t ever regard as dangerous can be used to stab, bludgeon, or strangle someone to death. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/14 "2014-01-08T22:55:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Vidal was pinned on the ground by two of the officers and was not posing a threat to anyone when the third officer said, “we don’t have time for this,” and shot Vidal, killing him. If that’s true and can be proven, there’s your fucking murder charge right there. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/15 "2014-01-08T23:05:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > [Another story](http://www.examiner.com/article/parents-call-for-help-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teen-after-he-is-subdued) on the incident. The father’s version of what happened: Interesting link on the same page [Police shoot unarmed man, 14-week-old puppy, threaten to shoot witness](http://www.examiner.com/article/police-shoot-unarmed-man-14-week-old-puppy-threaten-to-shoot-witness) ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/16 "2014-01-09T00:32:37Z")
What strikes me here, and it’s clearly far too early to form any opinions, is that the parents were clearly frightened of what this child might do, and unable to control him, so they called the police. Exactly what did they expect the police to do that they couldn’t do themselves? If they couldn’t talk the kid down, why would they expect that the police could? If the kid was not posing any danger to anyone, why call the police at all? They say they called the police to help calm the kid down. How are the police equipped to do that? If the kid needed calming, why not call a psychiatrist or social worker? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/17 "2014-01-09T01:14:07Z")
> [@Sicks\_Ate](#): > > I’ve heard 100 cops says “I’ll do whatever I need to do to go home at night.” > > IMHO, sometimes this is not the correct attitude. I wonder how many enemies the cops make with these attitudes of insular, aggressive disdain for the people they are supposed to protect. It reminds me of an argument once used by a US soldier to teach human rights to latin american military officers. You abuse people, people rebel and stop cooperating. You abuse them more, they rebel more. It is a downward spiral. I’m sure the police will be found not as fault (as always) but maybe the dept. will institute a CIT program to prevent this in the future. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/18 "2014-01-09T01:52:17Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > They say they called the police to help calm the kid down. How are the police equipped to do that? If the kid needed calming, why not call a psychiatrist or social worker? Police are supposed to be trained in dealing with a [5150 situation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5150_%28involuntary_psychiatric_hold%29) (or whatever the code is outside of California) or they should have a [PET Team](http://www.valleyccc.org/services.php?id=767) on standby to peacefully defuse the incident. As for the parents, they definitely should have called the kid’s shrink first, perhaps they did but he/she wasn’t available or they were told to call 911. In any case, there is NO excuse for deadly force in this situation – NONE whatsoever. If three professional LEO’s can’t subdue a crazy teen with a small but potentially stabby weapon, they are a disgrace to their profession and perhaps even humanity itself. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/19 "2014-01-09T02:33:54Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Interesting link on the same page > [Police shoot unarmed man, 14-week-old puppy, threaten to shoot witness](http://www.examiner.com/article/police-shoot-unarmed-man-14-week-old-puppy-threaten-to-shoot-witness) :eek: Holy shit! That story isn’t much better: “Manning’s complaint then says a witness tried to record the scene with his cell phone, but a Harvey officer grabbed the phone and threw it, saying ‘You touch the phone, I will shoot the s\*\*t out of you.’” “According to details of the complaint one of the officers listed as a defendant said: ‘Yeah, I shot the dog. What the f\*\*k you gonna do about it?’” ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/20 "2014-01-09T03:16:40Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Seriously…how fucking dangerous is a 90-lb. child wielding a SCREWDRIVER??? I’m not much for piling on, but the technical term for ANY 13+ year old with a screwdriver is “dangerous.” A wound-up teen with a screwdriver is “really dangerous.” A wound-up, likely cognitively impaired teen with a screwdriver is “really fucking dangerous, don’t kid yourself.” Frankly, I think I could take a batshit crazy 9 year-old if I was allowed a choke hold or unrestrained punches, but I’d have to decide if the struggle is worth losing an eye or a testicle. Add a couple more years on the kid and give him a stabby stabby and I’m not approaching it without a gun. That said, the cop sounds like a murderer. Unless he was a big kid, three cops should have been able to get him down and hold him down (although I’d be concerned about one losing his gun to the kid). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311.md?page=2)