# RO: Police shoot, kill mentally ill teenager **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 8, 2014, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311 "2014-01-08T20:55:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/201 "2014-01-16T19:22:23Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > His post is his cite. Cite? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Matata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Matata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Matata)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/202 "2014-01-16T19:49:56Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Your point is fair, so how about this, why don’t you break down the prior statistics and separate what you consider the good killin’s vs. the bad killin’s? Hey, if someone’s gonna accuse me for failing to not make better use of my time, I can play that same game. \*\*You \*\*are still the one making extraordinary claims - that law enforcement officers routinely assault and kill people in their custody, without justification and suffering no legal repercussions. Therefore, it’s still up to **you** to back up your claims with cites. Regarding the Fullerton case, a jury of 12 men and women heard the evidence for three weeks, and acquitted the two officers on trial. The potential remains for federal and civil trials for all three officers accused of improper behavior, but the two who were tried have been found not guilty of murder, manslaughter, or use of excessive force. Your opinion nor mine counts because we weren’t on the jury, and we aren’t privy to all of the evidence presented to those who were on the jury. And, of course, the investigation is still ongoing in the Vidal case. We still don’t know the facts, we haven’t seen the evidence, and I, for one, am unwilling to pass judgement based on a few short news articles and the public statements of a grieving parent. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/203 "2014-01-16T20:07:03Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > So that’s 2931 police killings in 7 years, which averages to **418.7 per year.** Your own cites only gave totals for 2012-13 (I wasn’t about to bother counting the rest by hand) which gave 304+587= 891 / 2 = **445.5 police killings per year.** I know that last one’s not statistically significant (and please don’t snark that I can actually add, because I used a calculator) but even with a conservative figure of 405-420 police killings per year, that’s a hell of a lot more than any opposing figures you LEO ass-kissers have come up with yet. And your point is what? I’m not counting the one at the top of your head, I’m asking if you seriously have some reason for blaring out numbers like this as if they had some special meaning or value. Police work is dangerous and quite often involves the use of deadly force. When one human being kills another, the legal term for it is “homicide”. The word that is missing from all your statistics is “justifiable”. Take out the number of justifiable homicides and rant about the rest, if you want. That would be much more realistic. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2014, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/204 "2014-01-16T20:23:56Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > you LEO ass-kissers Nobody is an LEO ass-kisser here. We just refuse to kiss yours. I do kiss the ass of rationality (logic, science, proof, etc., whatever form it takes). You kiss the ass of your emotions and biases instead. And that’s why you’re here flailing desperately. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/205 "2014-01-17T00:19:26Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > So, including the examples from **Cheesesteak Tartare** and **Monty Pylon** , we have a grand total of eight, count 'em EIGHT actual uniformed killers where the LEO received justice!!! Good work guys! That’s compared to…what was the cite upthread? Approx. 2000 civilian deaths per year by police gunfire? It was something like that, too busy to check myself. Now, 8 vs. 2000 isn’t barely anything (esp. when you consider the VAST MAJORITY of LEO’s who kill and walk free to kill again) but it’s a start! Keep up the good work, guys! 🆒 > Ooh, how original. You’re one lousy and lazy liar. Let me explain something to you–no doubt this will also be an exercise in futility, but here goes anyway: You asserted that no LEO on duty was convicted of murder. It took me less than ten seconds to prove that assertion false. It really doesn’t matter if there were only one or even a million LEOs convicted of murder on duty. What matters is that your assertion–which you just made up: meaning you lied–is proven false. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/206 "2014-01-17T00:58:50Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Matata](#): > > \*\*You \*\*are still the one making extraordinary claims - that law enforcement officers routinely assault and kill people in their custody, without justification and suffering no legal repercussions. There is nothing extraordinary whatsoever about my claim. LEO’s do indeed murder innocent civilians with alarming frequency, and they routinely get away with it. Frankly, I’m not so much upset about the former than I am the latter – because if our society actually grew a pair and routinely PUNISHED these donut-chomping psychopaths (aside from rare & unusual cases) then it would set a precedent that policemen should, y’know, actually uphold the law and protect their citizens instead of wantonly beating and/or killing them. > [@Clothahump](#): > > Police work is dangerous and quite often involves the use of deadly force. When one human being kills another, the legal term for it is “homicide”. The word that is missing from all your statistics is “justifiable”. Take out the number of justifiable homicides and rant about the rest, if you want. That would be much more realistic. Oh, okay. I’m sorry, but in my blue-sky world when a uniformed officer says, “Ain’t Nobody Got Time Fo’ Dat” and shoots a skinny teenager _who’s already been tazed and subdued_, that’s first-degree murder. If you say that’s “justifiable,” well, don’t invite me to any of your toga parties. Don’t invite any of your friends and family to your toga parties, either. Let me ask you – if the same happened to one your children, how would you feel? Would you shrug like you are and say we should wait for all the facts? Because we already have the facts of this case, the testimony of eyewitnesses including the parents and the police. That’s unlikely to change, ever. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/207 "2014-01-17T01:09:13Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Oh, okay. I’m sorry, but in my blue-sky world when a uniformed officer says, “Ain’t Nobody Got Time Fo’ Dat” He said with sass? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/208 "2014-01-17T01:30:49Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > He said with sass? “Allegedly” said with sass. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Matata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Matata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Matata)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/209 "2014-01-17T02:18:14Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > There is nothing extraordinary whatsoever about my claim. LEO’s do indeed murder innocent civilians with alarming frequency, and they routinely get away with it. Frankly, I’m not so much upset about the former than I am the latter – because if our society actually grew a pair and routinely PUNISHED these donut-chomping psychopaths (aside from rare & unusual cases) then it would set a precedent that policemen should, y’know, actually uphold the law and protect their citizens instead of wantonly beating and/or killing them. So far, you seem to have cited three cases that indicate to you that LEOs assault and kill with impugnity: Fullerton (jury disagrees with you,) Rodney King (jury disagreed with you,) and Vidal (investigation pending.) I’d like to see more examples of this phenomenon, which shouldn’t be so difficult to cite if it’s so common. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/210 "2014-01-17T03:27:06Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Matata](#): > > So far, you seem to have cited three cases that indicate to you that LEOs assault and kill with impugnity: Fullerton (jury disagrees with you,) Rodney King (jury disagreed with you,) and Vidal (investigation pending.) There you go again, automatically assuming all juries are accurate & unbiased. The media must love gullible consumers like you. :rolleyes: Do you believe O.J. Simpson is innocent as well? Or Fatty Arbuckle? Or are you too afraid to admit the truth, that SOME cops actually DO get away with murder? I’m merely calling attention to one specific incident (which has since grown to two) where justice has failed, but you are claiming there’s no injustice to begin with. You are the one who is not making sense here. ---
**Author:** ![Lacunae\_Matata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lacunae\_Matata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lacunae_Matata)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/211 "2014-01-17T03:49:50Z")
You assume a lot about what I assume. My assumption isn’t that juries are always fair or unbiased. My assumption is that I don’t know all of the facts. My assumption isn’t that LEOs are always angels with badges. My assumption is that questionable actions taken under the authority of those badges should be thoroughly investigated, and prosecuted if that is the appropriate course of action. I haven’t claimed injustice never takes place. I’ve asked you to point out to me situations in which you believe that justice has been perverted in favor of LEOs. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/212 "2014-01-17T04:21:34Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > . . . Or are you too afraid to admit the truth, that SOME cops actually DO get away with murder? . . . No one here has denied that. Yes, we all know that some cops have gotten away with murder. > [@](#): > > I’m merely calling attention to one specific incident (which has since grown to two) where justice has failed, but you are claiming there’s no injustice to begin with. You are the one who is not making sense here. You’re failing miserably to establish that either of these cases are actual miscarriages of justice. No one here has said that they cannot be. We’re just noting that you haven’t given us sufficient evidence to support your claims. You’re also committing a shit load of logical fallacies, excluded middle, hasty generalization, argument from ignorance, and appeal to emotion. If this is to be considered a trial by public opinion, you’re doing a real crappy job as prosecutor. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/213 "2014-01-17T06:29:51Z")
> [@Lacunae\_Matata](#): > > My assumption is that questionable actions taken under the authority of those badges should be thoroughly investigated, and prosecuted if that is the appropriate course of action. I’m sorry, did you just say three cops beating an unarmed homeless man to death, or shooting a disabled teenager in cold blood should be described as merely “questionable”? Too bad ya’ll ain’t from Nawth Kaw’lyna, the defense attorney would love to have ya’ll in the jury pool. > [@Trinopus](#): > > You’re failing miserably to establish that either of these cases are actual miscarriages of justice. I’m sorry, did you just say three cops beating an unarmed homeless man to death, or shooting a disabled teenager in cold blood doesn’t count as a miscarriage of justice? Too bad ya’ll ain’t from Nawth Kaw’lyna, the defense attorney would love to have ya’ll in the jury pool. > [@Trinopus](#): > > You’re also committing a shit load of logical fallacies, excluded middle, hasty generalization, argument from ignorance, and appeal to emotion. This isn’t a Great Debate, trilobite-breath. And if you genuinely feel unemotional after reading these stories in the press, do the world a favor and **[consults Pitt Rules]** go check yourself into a mental hospital or a halfway house or maybe spend a few nights sleeping on the sidewalk and see how well life treats you. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/214 "2014-01-17T06:43:42Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > . . . I’m sorry, did you just say three cops beating an unarmed homeless man to death, or shooting a disabled teenager in cold blood doesn’t count as a miscarriage of justice? . . . It might be…and it might not be. Show us the evidence. If the cops claim that the use of force was necessary, and you can’t dredge up jack shit to counter that claim, then you’re just pissing around. > [@](#): > > This isn’t a Great Debate, trilobite-breath. And if you genuinely feel unemotional after reading these stories in the press . . . It sure as hell ain’t a debate, arsenose, because you haven’t brought anything factual to the table. You have nothing other than emotions. Emotions, wah wah, but not a fucking ounce of facts. If this is the way you make judgements regarding issues of public policy, maybe you ought to take heavy doses of tranquilizers, because your endorphins aren’t doing a very good job. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/215 "2014-01-17T07:07:46Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Common sense is one of the most worthless “arguments” ever. > In addition to your false dilemma, which has already been exposed, you are pointing to something as “more likely” and expecting us to accept certainty. No, something being likely does not make it true. > And, like many who are not very good at critical thinking, you are arrogant about it. Sounds like conservapedia. A oft repeated mantra there is that some things are just so obvious that evidence isn’t required. Anyone asking for evidence is labeled liberal scum and often banned without ceremony. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/216 "2014-01-17T07:50:16Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > If the cops claim that the use of force was necessary, and you can’t dredge up jack shit to counter that claim, then you’re just pissing around. So any time an unctuous pig says “That boy needed killin’,” you merely acquit on faith and keep voting Republican? (Oops, I forgot, liberals are just as guilty of ignoring this travesty.) > [@Trinopus](#): > > It sure as hell ain’t a debate, arsenose, because you haven’t brought anything factual to the table. You have nothing other than emotions. Emotions, wah wah, but not a fucking ounce of facts. Fact #1: Police are summoned by the parents to have their teenaged kid hospitalized, which they have stated they have done several times before without incident. Fact #2: Police manage to disable the teen with a tazer. Fact #3: One policeman decides he doesn’t his coffee & fresh donuts to get cold, so he shoots the kid dead with a snide remark, knowing that Internal Affairs and a jury of his peers will fully acquit him. (Meanwhile, he’s sitting at home on leave WITH PAY, instead of being locked up in prison where any average civilian would definitely be held without bail.) If these do not count as FACTS in your tiny ostrich brain-sized world, kindly do tell me what would count as a “fact” in your opinion. Stop hiding behind your “blah blah fallacy blah blah emotion” psychobabble and endear me with your brilliant acumen, I can’t wait to hear it. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/217 "2014-01-17T08:44:45Z")
**buddha\_david** , you might want to step back for a minute, you’re embarrasing yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/218 "2014-01-17T13:00:41Z")
I don’t think the word “fact” means what you think it means. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/219 "2014-01-17T13:08:20Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I don’t think the word “fact” means what you think it means. From [Merriam-Webster](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fact): > [@](#): > > **fact** > \*noun \*\ˈfakt\ > > : something that truly exists or happens : something that has actual existence > : a true piece of information Since this is the same as my definition, you must be thinking that the parents are wrong about what the cops did to their son. Considering your profession IRL, that comes as no surprise. Good day to you sir, and have a bear claw on me. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [January 17, 2014, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/220 "2014-01-17T13:43:16Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Do you believe O.J. Simpson is innocent as well? Or Fatty Arbuckle? I knew it was just a matter of time… _why_ can’t we have some good old fashioned emotional outrage without somebody dragging Fatty Arbuckle into it? Well, now the kid gloves are off. You, sir, are a dunderheaded dipstick. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311.md?page=12)