# RO: Police shoot, kill mentally ill teenager **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 8, 2014, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311 "2014-01-08T20:55:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/21 "2014-01-09T03:42:17Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > . . . In any case, there is NO excuse for deadly force in this situation – NONE whatsoever. If three professional LEO’s can’t subdue a crazy teen with a small but potentially stabby weapon, they are a disgrace to their profession and perhaps even humanity itself. Sorry, but you aren’t presenting a coherent argument here. You, here, concede that it is a potentially stabby weapon. That’s the excuse right there. Yes, the police may well have acting very, very wrongly. But you haven’t demonstrated that yet. Until you actually cough up some evidence, you’re just howling at the moon. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/22 "2014-01-09T04:34:13Z")
I didn’t see anywhere that the kid weighed 90 lbs? (Other than here) That seems far too little for an 18 yr old. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/23 "2014-01-09T05:04:01Z")
> [@curlcoat](#): > > I didn’t see anywhere that the kid weighed 90 lbs? (Other than here) That seems far too little for an 18 yr old. It’s in [MSNBC’s headline.](http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/police-tase-shoot-and-kill-90-poundpolice) ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/24 "2014-01-09T05:35:10Z")
> [@](#): > > Vidal was pinned on the ground by two of the officers and was not posing a threat to anyone when the third officer said, “we don’t have time for this,” and shot Vidal, killing him. Maybe they’re really, really, _really_, hella busy. Like busier than you could possibly imagine. So busy it just makes good sense to shoot anyone slowing you down. We’ve all had days like that at work. ---
**Author:** ![curlcoat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea5d25/32.png) [@curlcoat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curlcoat)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/25 "2014-01-09T05:38:05Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > It’s in [MSNBC’s headline.](http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/police-tase-shoot-and-kill-90-poundpolice) It wasn’t in anything in the OP tho - I guess he had also read the MSNBC thing too and just didn’t link to it. Shrug. ---
**Author:** ![AlienVessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ba8739/32.png) [@AlienVessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AlienVessels)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/26 "2014-01-09T06:19:49Z")
> [@SpoilerVirgin](#): > > What strikes me here, and it’s clearly far too early to form any opinions, is that the parents were clearly frightened of what this child might do, and unable to control him, so they called the police. Exactly what did they expect the police to do that they couldn’t do themselves? If they couldn’t talk the kid down, why would they expect that the police could? If the kid was not posing any danger to anyone, why call the police at all? They say they called the police to help calm the kid down. How are the police equipped to do that? If the kid needed calming, why not call a psychiatrist or social worker? Yeah, police ought to receive special training and equipment if we’re going to expect them to do something other folks who don’t have those things can’t. ---
**Author:** ![PoorYorick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PoorYorick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PoorYorick)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/27 "2014-01-09T15:55:41Z")
I don’t have enough information to form an opinion yet, but that’s never stopped me from posting. I used to work in a dorm-type hospital for emotionally disturbed children, from about age four to eighteen (them, not me). And when I say “disturbed,” I mean really, really disturbed. This was pretty much their last stop. We had a twelve year old girl who required four grown men to restrain when she went off. If she’d had a screwdriver, we wouldn’t have stood a chance. We had quite a few we learned never to turn our backs on. My experience there gave me a great respect for the physical prowess of disturbed children. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/28 "2014-01-09T16:25:43Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Got some stats to back that up? I’m aware that roughly 150 police officers are killed in the line of duty every year, but I don’t know how many civilians are killed by police officers. As a matter of fact… I just read [this article the other day.](http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131230/15411225716/number-officers-killed-line-duty-drops-to-50-year-low-while-number-citizens-killed-cops-remains-unchanged.shtml) Linked from it is [this document](http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ard0309st.pdf), which says from 2003-2009 4813 people died while being arrested, of those 2931 where ruled to be homicide by law enforcement personnel. Other causes of death were, in order of most important to least: suicide, intoxication, accidental, natural causes, and unknown. From [this site](http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/year.html), during the same time period 1090 police officers died in the line of duty. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/29 "2014-01-09T16:43:27Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > [http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/investigation-north-carolina-kid-killed-cops-article-1.1568523](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/investigation-north-carolina-kid-killed-cops-article-1.1568523) > > This story makes me fucking sick. Once again, the police prove how inherently corrupt, immoral, and unconcerned about the citizens they pretend to protect. It’s shoot first, ask questions later with them. > > Seriously…how fucking dangerous is a 90-lb. child wielding a SCREWDRIVER??? In a word - very. Until you have been in their shoes, don’t criticize the cops. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/30 "2014-01-09T16:57:45Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > In a word - very. Until you have been in their shoes, don’t criticize the cops. Does that work for others, too, or just the cops? ‘Until you have been in the President’s shoes, don’t criticize the President’. Or – ‘Until you’ve been in a woman’s shoes, don’t criticize a woman’. Or are you just full of crap, and it’s actually appropriate and reasonable to criticize police officers when they have acted inappropriately? ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/31 "2014-01-09T16:58:33Z")
> [@echoreply](#): > > As a matter of fact… I just read [this article the other day.](http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131230/15411225716/number-officers-killed-line-duty-drops-to-50-year-low-while-number-citizens-killed-cops-remains-unchanged.shtml) Linked from it is [this document](http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/ard0309st.pdf), which says from 2003-2009 4813 people died while being arrested, of those **2931 where ruled to be homicide by law enforcement personnel.** Other causes of death were, in order of most important to least: suicide, intoxication, accidental, natural causes, and unknown. From [this site](http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/year.html), during the same time period 1090 police officers died in the line of duty. Did the article determine how many of these murdered civilians were presumably innocent, as apart from genuine criminals? In any case, that’s a 3:1 ratio of civilians vs. cops killed. I’ll allow the numbers to speak for themselves, TYVM. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/32 "2014-01-09T17:14:57Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > Yeah, police ought to receive special training and equipment if we’re going to expect them to do something other folks who don’t have those things can’t. I don’t follow you. As was pointed out upthread, > [@](#): > > “The tasers hit him, he fell back. Two officers were on top of him. You know, he’s got the little screwdriver. I mean, I would have went and got the screwdriver from him,” Wilsey said. Wilsey doesn’t figure he needs special training or equipment to handle the situation; why, he “would have” disarmed the madman himself, if only something something. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/33 "2014-01-09T17:25:42Z")
> [@PoorYorick](#): > > We had a twelve year old girl who required four grown men to restrain when she went off. If she’d had a screwdriver, we wouldn’t have stood a chance. We had quite a few we learned never to turn our backs on. I’ve mentioned here before that when my mother-in-law was in the hospital prior to heart stenting surgery, she developed ‘ICU delirium’ (on top of the Alzheimer’s she was beginning to have) and thought she was in a hotel. That was fine until she decided she was going to check out, and hospital staff tried to prevent her from leaving. Then my sweet, low 100s weight, too frail to walk their dog lest she get pulled down the street, 3 major blood vessels around the heart blocked, late-70s mother-in-law turned into someone requiring 4 staff members to subdue her, and 4-point restraints until the sedation kicked in. I have zero doubts that if she had a table knife from her meal or something, she could have seriously hurt someone. Do not underestimate the potential for people affected by mind-altering drugs or mental disorders to be extremely dangerous, even if their physical condition might not make them imposing. That being said, if the situation played out as in the ‘we don’t have time for this’ claim, fuck that cop. But we have only scattered reports so far. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/34 "2014-01-09T17:36:04Z")
> [@PoorYorick](#): > > I don’t have enough information to form an opinion yet, but that’s never stopped me from posting. I used to work in a dorm-type hospital for emotionally disturbed children, from about age four to eighteen (them, not me). And when I say “disturbed,” I mean really, really disturbed. This was pretty much their last stop. We had a twelve year old girl who required four grown men to restrain when she went off. If she’d had a screwdriver, we wouldn’t have stood a chance. We had quite a few we learned never to turn our backs on. > > My experience there gave me a great respect for the physical prowess of disturbed children. I agree. I was a medical lab tech in another life; once kids were about two years old, you couldn’t physically hold them down and take their blood against their will. Cops aren’t doing fine work like trying to take blood, but a struggling human being is STRONG! Add mentally ill and armed into the mix, and I am also not going anywhere near that scene. I will also add the caveat that the third cop on the scene does sound like he is very much in the wrong, if things happened the way the father says it did. > [@kayaker](#): > > Maybe they’re really, really, _really_, hella busy. Like busier than you could possibly imagine. So busy it just makes good sense to shoot anyone slowing you down. We’ve all had days like that at work. If office workers could tase each other, we would never stop being tased. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/35 "2014-01-09T17:41:02Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Did the article determine how many of these murdered civilians were presumably innocent, as apart from genuine criminals? In America they were all innocent civilians. Unless they were being led from the courtroom to the hoosgow to serve their time. \* Kisses \* 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SpoilerVirgin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@SpoilerVirgin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SpoilerVirgin)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/36 "2014-01-09T17:53:32Z")
> [@AlienVessels](#): > > Yeah, police ought to receive special training and equipment if we’re going to expect them to do something other folks who don’t have those things can’t. One of the primary pieces of equipment that a police officer has is a gun. That doesn’t mean that the police are always justified in using their weapons, but it does mean that when you call them, you know that you are bringing deadly weapons into the situation. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/37 "2014-01-09T17:57:49Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Cops are fucking EVIL like that. No they aren’t. ---
**Author:** ![Kinthalis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kinthalis/32/16084_2.png) [@Kinthalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kinthalis)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/38 "2014-01-09T18:02:59Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > No they aren’t. I would have to agree with this. I would say no more than 29.999% of cops are evil. The rest are just human beings who make mistakes, are sometimes incompetent, abusive and thuggish. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/39 "2014-01-09T18:11:17Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Did the article determine how many of these murdered civilians were presumably innocent, as apart from genuine criminals? > > In any case, that’s a 3:1 ratio of civilians vs. cops killed. I’ll allow the numbers to speak for themselves, TYVM. Innocent vs. criminal is not relevant here. The question you want to ask is how many of those killed were behaving in a manner that endangered public (or the officer’s) safety. [justifiable homicide](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justifiable_homicide) != [murder.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder) ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/40 "2014-01-09T18:21:43Z")
Our local police department has a written procedure they follow anytime a cop discharges their weapon in the line of duty. This procedure is written by … elected officials. Maybe the problem there is with who is getting elected. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311.md?page=3)