# RO: Police shoot, kill mentally ill teenager **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 8, 2014, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311 "2014-01-08T20:55:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/81 "2014-01-11T01:01:01Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Perhaps they thought the police were t rained professionals who could subdue people without killing them. According to them, he wasn’t dangerous. If I thought someone wasn’t capable of causing harm, I wouldn’t be calling the police. Maybe there’s some other good reason I’m not seeing, but that doesn’t make sense to me as yet. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/82 "2014-01-11T01:35:30Z")
> [@drachillix](#): > > Your firefighter strawman is unfortunately incorrect. Yeah, strawmen make terrible firefighters. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/83 "2014-01-11T01:56:26Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > Yeah, strawmen make terrible firefighters. Indeed! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/84 "2014-01-11T01:58:00Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Perhaps they thought the police were trained professionals who could subdue people without killing them. Every situation is different. Different people, different mindsets, different levels of fighting experience, different environments, different weapons. Training can give a decent baseline, but its not like your average police officer is a nth degree black belt in whatever flavor of chop-sockey you prefer. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/85 "2014-01-11T02:13:16Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > In a word - very. Until you have been in their shoes, don’t criticize the cops. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Does that work for others, too, or just the cops? ‘Until you have been in the President’s shoes, don’t criticize the President’. Or – ‘Until you’ve been in a woman’s shoes, don’t criticize a woman’. > > Or are you just full of crap, and it’s actually appropriate and reasonable to criticize police officers when they have acted inappropriately? OMFG I want to frame this exchange! Let’s go to the quarry and throw stuff down there! You should see the look I picture on your face as you typed that, **iiandyiiii**! It’s a perfect blend of mocking derision and smug self-congratulatory satisfaction! ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/86 "2014-01-11T02:15:02Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > You really need to stop saying that - the suspect who was shot was 18 years old - he was NOT a kid. I am of two minds about this. One, he was of age, and even if he wasn’t of age and small and scraggly, he could still be dangerous. Two, I guess I’m old enough to think of any 18 year old as a kid. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/87 "2014-01-11T03:26:22Z")
> [@Antinor01](#): > > According to them, he wasn’t dangerous. If I thought someone wasn’t capable of causing harm, I wouldn’t be calling the police. Maybe there’s some other good reason I’m not seeing, but that doesn’t make sense to me as yet. One of the links has the original 911 call placed by the step-dad. The reason he stated for calling the police was to have the teen admitted, which they’d apparently had done before when he had an episode after skipping his meds. It doesn’t sound like they felt in danger, as they were not in the same room with him. During the call he says he’s outside the house placing the call - I don’t think any man would leave his wife in danger to make a phone call. The family’s version also says the son had already been disarmed and was being wrestled into handcuffs by two officers when the 3rd officer showed up, saw the struggle and insisted Vidal be tasered (seems better to me that tased - spellcheck doesn’t like either), which was done, and _then_ shot him. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/88 "2014-01-11T03:50:54Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > The family’s version also says the son had already been disarmed and was being wrestled into handcuffs by two officers when the 3rd officer showed up, saw the struggle and insisted Vidal be tasered (seems better to me that tased - spellcheck doesn’t like either), which was done, and _then_ shot him. I wonder if the third officer didn’t know what was going on. ---
**Author:** ![cutman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@cutman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cutman74)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/89 "2014-01-11T03:57:02Z")
Something similar happened in my family about 10 years ago. No one died because of it, but it dramatically changed the lives of everyone involved. My wife was at home with my father-in-law when he just lost it. He was a veteran of Vietnam and had serious issues with PTSD. Generally, one of us could talk him down, but she was alone with our two year old, so she decided she needed some help. She called 911 expecting to get an ambulance, instead she got the police. They beat him senseless no questions asked, gave him some stitches stole his handmade boots(he was really proud of those) and sent him on his way with no bus fare. His mental condition then deteriorated rapidly and he was dead by New Years the next year. After dealing with that, seeing this thread convinces me that there should be some kind of service which is sympathetic with metal maladies somewhere between the police who generally look at every problem as a nail for which they are the hammer and the EMT who is capable of first aid for trauma and triage but not well versed with mental illness. Once again, I’m sorry for the block of text. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/90 "2014-01-11T04:01:28Z")
> [@cutman74](#): > > They beat him senseless no questions asked, gave him some stitches stole his handmade boots(he was really proud of those) and sent him on his way with no bus fare. His mental condition then deteriorated rapidly and he was dead by New Years the next year. That is bizarre. Were you aware of his whereabouts, to find out that he had died? ---
**Author:** ![cutman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@cutman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cutman74)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/91 "2014-01-11T04:24:55Z")
Yeah, I guess that was unclear. We went to the jail to bail him out the next day and found him on a bench outside the county jail barefoot. He just went completely downhill after that and was in a home for veterans by mid-year and died there right before the new year ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/92 "2014-01-11T04:58:05Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Eh, I’ll cut him some slack on that. 18 years old may be legally an adult, but I often refer to people that age as “kids.” This is true, and thank you v.much for making me feel old for the 134th time today. ☹ > [@cutman74](#): > > …there should be some kind of service which is sympathetic with metal maladies somewhere between the police who generally look at every problem as a nail for which they are the hammer and the EMT who is capable of first aid for trauma and triage but not well versed with mental illness. They do have these services in my home city. I hear they’ve a very good record in dealing with the mentally ill (though not so much with homeless people in BART stations, apparently.) It seems that in Hicksville Nawth Cawlaina, they just shoot first and don’t bother asking questions later? > [@epbrown01](#): > > The family’s version also says the son had already been disarmed and was being wrestled into handcuffs by two officers when the 3rd officer showed up, saw the struggle and insisted Vidal be tasered (seems better to me that tased - spellcheck doesn’t like either), which was done, and _then_ shot him. And why should we disbelieve the family’s version of events??? They were there, they saw what happened, they have no motivation to lie or exaggerate. But unless there was a hidden camera or clairvoyant psychic medium nearby, we will never know any more facts beyond their testimony which is very unlikely to ever change. Yes, I know, only God knows the entire truth. But there’s nothing God can do about it, because she’s dead. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/93 "2014-01-11T05:51:17Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > . . . And why should we disbelieve the family’s version of events??? They were there, they saw what happened, they have no motivation to lie or exaggerate. . . . I disagree: they have a huge motivation to lie and/or exaggerate. For one thing, it gives them someone else to blame, so they can imagine their kid as totally innocent. It feeds their self-esteem. For another thing, it puts them in line for a very remunerative lawsuit. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/94 "2014-01-11T05:52:54Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Eh, I’ll cut him some slack on that. 18 years old may be legally an adult, but I often refer to people that age as “kids.” \ I think the colour of the language being used in this thread is important - arguing that cops killed a “kid” for no good reason instead of the cops killed a “young adult” for no good reason makes a huge difference in people’s visceral reaction to this story. > [@buddha\_david](#): > > \ > And why should we disbelieve the family’s version of events??? They were there, they saw what happened, they have no motivation to lie or exaggerate. \ Of course they do - for their own peace of mind, they need to tell themselves that their son didn’t do anything to deserve being killed, for the court of public opinion they need to paint their son as an innocent victim, and for any potential lawsuits, they need to make out that the police were 100% at fault. Saying, “Well, our son was crazy and violent and he was waving a screwdriver at the police, so we kind of understand that they did what they had to do” doesn’t make much of a story. ETA: High fives **Trinopus**! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/95 "2014-01-11T06:00:17Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > But there’s nothing God can do about it, because she’s dead. Whoo-hoo-hoo, look who knows so much… It just so happens that God is only mostly dead. There’s a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there’s usually only one thing you can do. Go through her pockets for loose change. – Miracle Max ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/96 "2014-01-11T06:03:26Z")
> [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > I think the colour of the language being used in this thread is important - And I think the color of your poop is important, but nobody here is asking you to change your diet. > [@Cat\_Whisperer](#): > > Of course they do - for their own peace of mind, they need to tell themselves that their son didn’t do anything to deserve being killed, for the court of public opinion they need to paint their son as an innocent victim, and for any potential lawsuits, they need to make out that the police were 100% at fault. Saying, “Well, our son was crazy and violent and he was waving a screwdriver at the police, so we kind of understand that they did what they had to do” doesn’t make much of a story. > > ETA: High fives **Trinopus**! 😃 Studies have shown that people rarely lie when they’ve just experienced a severe trauma, such as, oh i dunno say, seeing their own flesh and blood shot dead in cold blood right before their eyes. It has to do with the mind being in a state of shock and denial, or something. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/97 "2014-01-11T10:14:50Z")
> [@epbrown01](#): > > One of the links has the original 911 call placed by the step-dad. The reason he stated for calling the police was to have the teen admitted, which they’d apparently had done before when he had an episode after skipping his meds. It doesn’t sound like they felt in danger, as they were not in the same room with him. During the call he says he’s outside the house placing the call - I don’t think any man would leave his wife in danger to make a phone call. > > The family’s version also says the son had already been disarmed and was being wrestled into handcuffs by two officers when the 3rd officer showed up, saw the struggle and insisted Vidal be tasered (seems better to me that tased - spellcheck doesn’t like either), which was done, and _then_ shot him. That sort of makes sense. I guess I just wouldn’t have thought of calling the police to have someone admitted to the hospital. ETA - Ok, this explains why they sent the police. From the 911 call - 911 Caller: “He wants to fight his mother. He has a screwdriver. He’s just, you know, he’s not doing so good. She’s scared to death of him.” ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/98 "2014-01-11T15:55:19Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I disagree: they have a huge motivation to lie and/or exaggerate. For one thing, it gives them someone else to blame, so they can imagine their kid as totally innocent. It feeds their self-esteem. For another thing, it puts them in line for a very remunerative lawsuit. For the same reason why the family of a full member of the Bloods who has a decades long record of violent crime goes on the news with his 8th grade school picture and talks about what a good boy he was and he loved his mother. After an incident like this at best the family is speaking from emotion. I won’t assume their motivation is more base. > [@buddha\_david](#): > > And I think the color of your poop is important, but nobody here is asking you to change your diet. > > Studies have shown that people rarely lie when they’ve just experienced a severe trauma, such as, oh i dunno say, seeing their own flesh and blood shot dead in cold blood right before their eyes. It has to do with the mind being in a state of shock and denial, or something. Studies… Good one. Being involved in a shooting is a severely traumatic event. Probably the most traumatic event they will ever be involved in. I’m surprised to see that you believe the cops won’t lie. Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/99 "2014-01-11T17:03:49Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > And I think the color of your poop is important, but nobody here is asking you to change your diet.\ Your style of arguing is…intriguing. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/100 "2014-01-11T17:54:35Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Studies… Good one. Being involved in a shooting is a severely traumatic event. Probably the most traumatic event they will ever be involved in. I’m surprised to see that you believe the cops won’t lie. No disrespect intended, good sir, but that’s fucking bullshit. Cops lie all the time. Everyone lies to cover their ass. And don’t pretend you don’t know that for some psychopathic people, shooting someone in cold blood is no more traumatic than a bee sting. There are plenty of psychopaths who wear the badge & uniform; not all of them of course, but a far higher ratio than most other walks of life. I’ve met individuals like that – people who wanted to join the police just so they could justifiably kill someone (but were too chickenshit to join the armed forces where the bad guys actually shoot back, not that I would’ve dared to say that to their face.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311.md?page=6)