# RO: Police shoot, kill mentally ill teenager **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 8, 2014, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311 "2014-01-08T20:55:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/101 "2014-01-11T20:28:28Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Studies have shown that people rarely lie when they’ve just experienced a severe trauma, such as, oh i dunno say, seeing their own flesh and blood shot dead in cold blood right before their eyes. It has to do with the mind being in a state of shock and denial, or something. I would be interested in seeing those studies. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/102 "2014-01-11T21:17:01Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > For the same reason why the family of a full member of the Bloods who has a decades long record of violent crime goes on the news with his 8th grade school picture and talks about what a good boy he was and he loved his mother. After an incident like this at best the family is speaking from emotion. I won’t assume their motivation is more base. . . . That’s fair. I mentioned the profit motive because it exists as a motive; I did not mean to imply that this actually was a driving motive for the family in this case. If you or I found a suitcase of money by the side of the road, we would have an obvious motive to keep it. That’s simply objectively true. Being honest people, we probably wouldn’t actually keep it, but no one could deny that the motive exists. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/103 "2014-01-11T21:18:54Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > No disrespect intended, good sir, but that’s fucking bullshit. Cops lie all the time. Everyone lies to cover their ass. . . . So, you suggest that the family of the victim are also lying? ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/104 "2014-01-11T23:13:44Z")
Why, did the family do something wrong? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/105 "2014-01-11T23:56:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Does that work for others, too, or just the cops? ‘Until you have been in the President’s shoes, don’t criticize the President’. Or – ‘Until you’ve been in a woman’s shoes, don’t criticize a woman’. > > Or are you just full of crap, and it’s actually appropriate and reasonable to criticize police officers when they have acted inappropriately? Quite obviously, I am not full of crap. Quite obviously, you are. Have you ever been attacked, in any manner whatsoever, for any reason whatsoever, by a smaller person who is out of their head and armed? Guess what? You don’t need to be in order to realize that an armed kid who is off his chump can kill or seriously injure an adult. Why, then, make the assumption that the cops acted incorrectly in this situation? Why not wait until the investigation is finished and then draw your conclusions? You don’t like the “walk in their shoes” line, fine. How about “visualize yourself in a similar scenario”? Does that work better for you? And I’ll answer your question again. How dangerous is a 90 pound kid armed with a screwdriver? Very. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2014, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/106 "2014-01-11T23:57:26Z")
Not that I know of. That’s what’s been bugging me from the get-go in this thread: **buddha\_david** is making extremely definite statements…for which there has been presented, as yet, absolutely zero evidence. He seems to have a special hate for the police. He says “everyone lies,” he seems to want to focus only on the police. But the police are only a part (a small part!) of “everyone.” I’m completely open to the possibility that the police made a tragic mistake. I’m even open to the possibility that they committed a deliberate act of violence. I’d just like some evidence. In trial terms, we’ve got a lovely “opening statement,” but no witnesses and no exhibits! ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/107 "2014-01-12T00:57:45Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Quite obviously, I am not full of crap. Quite obviously, you are. LOL. You are a deluded person. > [@](#): > > Have you ever been attacked, in any manner whatsoever, for any reason whatsoever, by a smaller person who is out of their head and armed? Yes I have. I weigh 250 pounds, and am in decent physical shape. Six years ago, I was alone and attacked by three skinny youths in Central America – they were armed with rocks and beer bottles. I fought them off with my bare hands. > [@](#): > > Guess what? You don’t need to be in order to realize that an armed kid who is off his chump can kill or seriously injure an adult. Why, then, make the assumption that the cops acted incorrectly in this situation? Why not wait until the investigation is finished and then draw your conclusions? I’ll reserve final judgment until the investigation is complete, but I’ll note that this is a trend of apparent overreaction by a small number of cops (most, like my cousin, are great people and great public servants) who have an unfortunate tendency to be defended to the end by knee-jerk reactionaries (and often the system itself) such as yourself. It’s possible that the cops behaved properly, but based on the reporting so far, that seems unlikely. Cops SHOULD think twice (or more) before shooting someone, in circumstances like this when they are not at risk of being under gunfire. > [@](#): > > You don’t like the “walk in their shoes” line, fine. How about “visualize yourself in a similar scenario”? Does that work better for you? Done and done. I think it’s very unlikely shooting them would be the only option. I still reserve final judgment, and the cops deserve a fair investigation. > [@](#): > > And I’ll answer your question again. How dangerous is a 90 pound kid armed with a screwdriver? Very. Not dangerous enough, in most cases, to warrant being shot. Sure, it’s possible this kid was so fast and physically capable that multiple cops were at high risk of death or serious injury, but I think that’s quite unlikely. We shall see. And you’re a buffoon. ---
**Author:** ![epbrown01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ba0ec/32.png) [@epbrown01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/epbrown01)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/108 "2014-01-12T08:00:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Yes I have. I weigh 250 pounds, and am in decent physical shape. Six years ago, I was alone and attacked by three skinny youths in Central America – they were armed with rocks and beer bottles. > > I fought them off with my bare hands. But how concerned we you with not hurting them? The video shows his stepfather as a pretty large guy, and though older I suspect he could have subdued the kid himself but didn’t want to risk hurting him. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/109 "2014-01-12T10:23:37Z")
You might think that public safety officers are thoroughly trained in dealing with mental health issues, but often it’s not true, here’s a quote from a recent article in my area (bolding mine): > [@](#): > > In the last week of April, Bianchi and Braun used MHSA money to offer the first Crisis Intervention Training seminar that’s been available in the county for two years. The 36-hour class was available free of charge for any law enforcement department in SLO County. Twenty-two officers from the city of San Luis Obispo, Grover Beach, Cal Poly, California Highway Patrol, Probation, and the Sheriff’s Department (both patrol and correctional officers) participated. > > **In the training academy, cadets spend only four hours learning how to deal with the mentally ill, and unlike driving maneuvers or shooting practice, no continuing education is ever required on the subject**. > > Senior Officer Kelly Cook of the Grover Beach Police Department said he deals with the mentally ill several times a week, if not daily, and was happy to take the class, which included role-playing exercises; PowerPoint presentations; and lectures from professional therapists, a person whose mentally ill son killed himself, and a stabilized schizophrenic who had once fired a gun at police officers. > > “He was talking about trying to kill a cop to a room full of cops,” Cook said. “That was the oddest experience. And now, he’s volunteering to help enlighten the very same people.” > > Cook said the experience was eye-opening. **Cops often suffer from emotional fatigue, he said; after trying to help stubborn people for a long period, police tend to grow calloused and insensitive, which is understandable but far from helpful**. These kinds of training exercises reintroduce officers to the humanity behind the mentally ill, he said. The complete article > **[A new way of thinking](https://www.newtimesslo.com/news/a-new-way-of-thinking-2941276)** > > A therapist and sheriff's reserve deputy joined forces to help the mentally ill get treated, not punished ---
**Author:** ![fisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@fisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fisha)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/110 "2014-01-12T13:12:23Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Studies have shown that people rarely lie when they’ve just experienced a severe trauma, such as, oh i dunno say, seeing their own flesh and blood shot dead in cold blood right before their eyes. It has to do with the mind being in a state of shock and denial, or something. Can I get a cite for that? Pretty please? ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/111 "2014-01-12T14:32:58Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Not dangerous enough, in most cases, to warrant being shot. Sure, it’s possible this kid was so fast and physically capable that multiple cops were at high risk of death or serious injury, but I think that’s quite unlikely. Get yourself a wiry, manic 18 year-old, give it a screwdriver, and piss it off. Come back here and report your findings (after you’ve learned how to use your prosthetic fingers and the doctors have put your guts back in your body cavity, of course). Again, not ready to side with the cops, but folks who approach smallish-but-agitated people with an attitude like yours are excellent candidates for becoming victims. And good on ya for being 250 pounds and in decent shape–most folks, even cops, are neither. A nutcase has different motivations and inhibitions from a street punk. The nutter is going to bring you a different kind of fight that doesn’t factor in self preservation. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/112 "2014-01-12T14:46:17Z")
> [@The Great Sun Jester](#): > > Get yourself a wiry, manic 18 year-old, give it a screwdriver, and piss it off. Come back here and report your findings (after you’ve learned how to use your prosthetic fingers and the doctors have put your guts back in your body cavity, of course). Again, not ready to side with the cops, but folks who approach smallish-but-agitated people with an attitude like yours are excellent candidates for becoming victims. And good on ya for being 250 pounds and in decent shape–most folks, even cops, are neither. A nutcase has different motivations and inhibitions from a street punk. The nutter is going to bring you a different kind of fight that doesn’t factor in self preservation. Can I bring a few friends, along with tasers, billy clubs, and pepper spray? 'Cause that would fit the situation better. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/113 "2014-01-12T15:37:47Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Can I bring a few friends, along with tasers, billy clubs, and pepper spray? 'Cause that would fit the situation better. But you’ve already established the fact that you are a badass ninja. Why would you need that? I think you are giving those tools too much credit. OC and Tasers don’t automatically incapacitate people. They are most effective on people who are in their right mind and can think “don’t do that to me again.” You can fight through both. In fact the training for using OC consists of being sprayed then fighting through a gauntlet of people with pads. And I would never recommend going after someone who has a knife or a puncture weapon with a club. It makes no sense. You want stand off distance. I happen to think there is a better than even chance that the cops screwed up in this case. But I will not pass judgement based on the understandably emotional statements of the family or Monday morning quarterbacking of armchair badasses. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/114 "2014-01-12T15:43:05Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I think you are giving those tools too much credit. OC and Tasers don’t automatically incapacitate people. They are most effective on people who are in their right mind and can think “don’t do that to me again.” You can fight through both. In fact the training for using OC consists of being sprayed then fighting through a gauntlet of people with pads. And I would never recommend going after someone who has a knife or a puncture weapon with a club. It makes no sense. You want stand off distance. > > I happen to think there is a better than even chance that the cops screwed up in this case. But I will not pass judgement based on the understandably emotional statements of the family or Monday morning quarterbacking of armchair badasses. Sounds good – I agree with all of that. I also will reserve final judgment. ---
**Author:** ![Tee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@Tee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tee)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/115 "2014-01-12T15:58:11Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > Re: > Cops often suffer from emotional fatigue, he said; after trying to help stubborn people for a long period, police tend to grow calloused and insensitive, which is understandable but far from helpful. These kinds of training exercises reintroduce officers to the humanity behind the mentally ill, he said. Yes, that’s what I was looking for. It’s not a murder case. It’s not how you serve and protect the public either. Maybe he’s a good cop who made one very bad decision, a logical answer which would satisfy nobody. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/116 "2014-01-12T16:23:40Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I happen to think there is a better than even chance that the cops screwed up in this case. Now there’s the Understatement of the Century. But kudos to you to at least confessing there is a chance. > [@Loach](#): > > But I will not pass judgement based on the understandably emotional statements of the family… Why not? This is the Internet, baby. This is the realm of grand declarations and kneejerk reactions. I have no problem assuming the role of judge and jury, based on what a Perfect World would decree. As for executioner, I will pass that mission on to the Angels and the Universe – for what it’s worth. > [@Loach](#): > > …or Monday morning quarterbacking of armchair badasses. Ok that did make me [del]want to throw rocks in the quarry[/del] laugh out loud, even though it’s clearly no laughing matter. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/117 "2014-01-12T16:45:32Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Why not? This is the Internet, baby. This is the realm of grand declarations and kneejerk reactions. I have no problem assuming the role of judge and jury, based on what a Perfect World would decree. As for executioner, I will pass that mission on to the Angels and the Universe – for what it’s . Sorry, I don’t do RO well. I’ll try harder in the future. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/118 "2014-01-14T04:52:41Z")
Semi-related hijack, and submitted w/o comment: [Fullerton policemen acquitted of murdering homeless man Kelly Thomas.](http://www.ocregister.com/articles/thomas-597152-police-cicinelli.html) > [@](#): > > _SANTA ANA – A former policeman sat with his head bowed Monday as an Orange County jury found him not guilty of second-degree murder in the death of a homeless man during a 2011 encounter captured on videotape. Manuel Anthony Ramos, who was a Fullerton police officer for 10 years,_\* then clasped his hands, wiped tears from his eyes and hugged his attorney\*\* as the jury also found him not guilty of involuntary manslaughter in the death of Kelly Thomas. > > Some of the more than 100 spectators cried when the verdicts were announced after seven hours of deliberations. But some – relatives, friends and supporters of Thomas – gasped. One spectator yelled “No!” And Ron Thomas, the homeless man’s father, sighed several times as the “not guilty” verdicts rolled in, and then stood up and said: **“What’s wrong with these people?”** > > The same jury of eight women and four men also acquitted former Cpl. Jay Cicinelli, Ramos’ former colleague, who was charged with involuntary manslaughter and **assault under color of authority** for his role July 5, 2011, in the altercation with Thomas.\* ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/119 "2014-01-14T16:11:21Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Why not? This is the Internet, baby. This is the realm of grand declarations and kneejerk reactions. I have no problem assuming the role of judge and jury, based on what a Perfect World would decree. Not a perfect world, just the real world. As long as you understand that you’re in a fantasy land now, carry on. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2014, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311/120 "2014-01-14T17:20:37Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > As long as you understand that you’re in a fantasy land now, carry on. Excuse me?? I’m fairly certain that: (1) Both Keith Vidal and Kelly Thomas are still dead as Dillinger. (2) Kelly Thomas’ murderer(s) are walking free & clear, thanks to an inherently corrupt and prejudiced legal system that automatically forgives any mass murderer wearing a badge. (3) Keith Vidal’s murderer will likely be the same as #3 – the officer’s actions have already been approved & endorsed by [North Carolina Police Benevolent Association](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/north-carolina-cops-justified-shooting-teen-police-group-article-1.1570872). Kindly tell, which part is fantasy land? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-police-shoot-kill-mentally-ill-teenager/678311.md?page=7)