# RO - Wells Fargo forecloses wrong house; discards all contents **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 8, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118 "2012-09-08T20:12:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/101 "2012-09-10T13:49:47Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > The reading the confusing mix of civil law, criminal law and outrage makes this a painful thread to read. Painful to read?? You should be arrested for slander! ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/102 "2012-09-10T13:51:02Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > well, **hijario** , if YANAL, or even a paralegal, I’m not sure I’d try to answer the question. > > And I wasn’t remotely wrong. There CAN be appeals. Do you really think the bank’s lawyers wouldn/t/couldn’t find a way? Dude, look who we’re talking about here. They could theoretically try to appeal but if there are no grounds then it will get denied and that will be the end of the story. I’m really not sure what you are expecting out of your weird fantasy scenario. We already pretty much know the story. What if the jury gives the couple less than the bank offered in the first place? Then who wins? ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/103 "2012-09-10T13:54:54Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > well, **hijario** , if YANAL, or even a paralegal, I’m not sure I’d try to answer the question. > > And I wasn’t remotely wrong. There CAN be appeals. Do you really think the bank’s lawyers wouldn/t/couldn’t find a way? Dude, look who we’re talking about here. He may not be a lawyer, but his summary of the process seems accurate to me. IANAL either, but I’ve sued and been sued a few times. As for your insistence that the bank will appeal? Really, really unlikely. The bank will try to settle this if at all possible to make the PR nightmare end. If they can’t do that, they’ll go with any vaguely sane court ruling, again just to make this end. Even if the court somehow picks a really silly figure (say $10 million) WF are still unlikely fight it, because the cost of the appeal + the cost of the bad publicity will be far worse. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/104 "2012-09-10T13:57:52Z")
Bricker has a lot more practical legal knowledge than I do (corporate and tax law is incredibly useless for everyday purposes) but I was always under the impression that foreclosures always required a court order. But I do remember a bit of law school. Most “crimes” have an intent requirement. So it may not have been a crime if there was no intent to break the law. There is a tort called conversion (which is the civil analogue to theft), which does not have an intent requirement, it is a strict liability tort. There is usually ONE appeal of right no real guaranteee of anything after that. But yeah, there is an incentive to negotiate down an incredibly large award to something more reasonable in order to avoid getting overturned on appeal. Absent a showing of gross negligence or wilful misconduct, it is not likely that punitive damages will be awarded. So it will come down to how much it would cost to replace what can be replaced and the value of what cannot be replaced. So how much are three generations of memories worth? ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/105 "2012-09-10T14:03:36Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Bricker has a lot more practical legal knowledge than I do (corporate and tax law is incredibly useless for everyday purposes) but I was always under the impression that foreclosures always required a court order. But I do remember a bit of law school. > > Most “crimes” have an intent requirement. So it may not have been a crime if there was no intent to break the law. There is a tort called conversion (which is the civil analogue to theft), which does not have an intent requirement, it is a strict liability tort. > > There is usually ONE appeal of right no real guaranteee of anything after that. But yeah, there is an incentive to negotiate down an incredibly large award to something more reasonable in order to avoid getting overturned on appeal. > > Absent a showing of gross negligence or wilful misconduct, it is not likely that punitive damages will be awarded. So it will come down to how much it would cost to replace what can be replaced and the value of what cannot be replaced. So how much are three generations of memories worth? At least YAL. But I disagree that there’s no gross negligence. Maybe if this only happened one time, sure, I would agree. Two times in a row, same house, same people? DAMN. It’s definitely negligence, and I’m pretty sure, as a jury member, I’d be MORE than happy to find it GROSS. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/106 "2012-09-10T14:04:48Z")
Just a general question–would a higher court uphold the appeal PURELY on the excessive size of an award? ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/107 "2012-09-10T14:07:22Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > A parsec is a unit of distance. You’ve never even **seen** Battlestar Gallactica, have you? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![VunderBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/839c29/32.png) [@VunderBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VunderBob)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/108 "2012-09-10T14:19:19Z")
Weighing in with sue WF to ruin their day, but also both contractors. Regarding idiot trashout contractors, I just went through a deed-in-lieu proceeding this spring, and the property management contractors I dealt with were also a piece of work. In my case, I did the property cleanup myself, so that wasn’t an issue. However, they insisted I sign the same checkoff list on 3 different dates (I signed twice and told them to go to hell on the 3rd), and that I was liable for property upkeep _AFTER_ I signed the deed over to the bank. That earned them another ‘go to hell’. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/109 "2012-09-10T14:30:53Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > At least YAL. > > But I disagree that there’s no gross negligence. Maybe if this only happened one time, sure, I would agree. > > Two times in a row, same house, same people? DAMN. It’s definitely negligence, and I’m pretty sure, as a jury member, I’d be MORE than happy to find it GROSS. No one, not me, anyone in this thread or Wells Fargo has claimed that the bank is not at fault. It’s down to a matter of how much the lost stuff is worth. The days of juries giving overly huge settlements for civil cases as a matter of course are long gone, especially when no one was killed or bodily harmed. Yes, IANAL, however I have a good friend from childhood that I have known for 35 years. His father owns a small law firm that does insurance defense. They are the kind of guys who would defend the bank except the don’t have big banks as clients. They defend small to medium sized businesses against malicious “slip and fall” type suits. Sometimes their client is at fault and they represent them in the settlement negotiations. I grew up hearing lots of stories. My friend followed in the business and now is a partner in the family firm. I am an engineer who specializes in manufacturing. For over two decades I have unofficially consulted for my friend when the case involves product liability. (Unofficially because I don’t charge him.) He’ll also run stuff by me sometimes when he has a regular case that is really complicated just to get my read on it. I really do have a pretty good idea how these things go. Again, both sided need to make a good faith offer to each other. Unless the couple is massively unreasonable, it will settle. Are you implying that the couple should purposefully make an unreasonable offer and stick to it so that it will go to trial at which point the jury will almost certainly award then less than they were asking for? ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/110 "2012-09-10T14:34:10Z")
> [@Jamaika\_a\_jamaikaiake](#): > > Yeah, but a bank can’t go to jail. I admit that by bringing up Citizens United, I was hijacking a bit, but it’s amazing how absurd that shit was. I thought corporations were people. If they are people they can spend time in jail. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/111 "2012-09-10T14:34:37Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > At least YAL. > > But I disagree that there’s no gross negligence. Maybe if this only happened one time, sure, I would agree. > > Two times in a row, same house, same people? DAMN. It’s definitely negligence, and I’m pretty sure, as a jury member, I’d be MORE than happy to find it GROSS. Please define “gross negligence” from a legal perspective and tell us how from the facts that you know that it meets that definition. If it got to a jury, they would get very specific instructions on what standards had to be met in order for it to be gross. They would have to use those standards in their deliberations. ---
**Author:** ![VunderBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/839c29/32.png) [@VunderBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VunderBob)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/112 "2012-09-10T14:34:54Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Again, both sided need to make a good faith offer to each other. Unless the couple is massively unreasonable, it will settle. Are you implying that the couple should purposefully make an unreasonable offer and stick to it so that it will go to trial at which point the jury will almost certainly award then less than they were asking for? IMAO, treble actual damages would be a reasonable settlement. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/113 "2012-09-10T14:38:53Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Edit: And why the hell isn’t this criminal? I have a strong feeling that IF I’d done any such thing, I’d be eating jail food for a while. BAnksters have a lot of bureaucracy to hide behind. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/114 "2012-09-10T14:40:44Z")
> [@Mosier](#): > > It seems like the bank is probably very much liable in civil court for this. I doubt any prosecutor would try to find anyone criminally liable though, unless the prosecutor believed there was intent to commit a crime. Is there no such thing as criminal negligence? I say they had both a legal and a moral duty not to repeact such a horrible mistake, and anyone who approved or instigated the second foreclosure owes the rest of us some jail time. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/115 "2012-09-10T14:42:19Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Mistakes do happen, but if you insist on recreational outrage, please direct against the lazy stupid process servers, suckling at the government teat, who made the mistake. And the lazy stupid banksters who did not take meticulous care to keep from repeating the mistake. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/116 "2012-09-10T14:48:33Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > A couple million seems about right to me. It’s very unlikely that a corporate fat cat was anywhere near this. It was probably an inattentive low level clerk or two that started the ball rolling. People tend to overestimate big companies. Personal Anecdote alert - When I was a Junior in College I had an internship at a large bank (not WF). My boss put me on setting prices for car leases. I had 2 areas…I could set the buy-back price and I could set the interest rate. I also had access to a pre-internet but internet-like system that the car dealers used to choose which bank they would use for a lease. After ONE day of supervision, I was cut loose and that is all I did all day…without supervision for the entire United States. We are talking over one hundred vehicles a day sometime reaching close to a thousand. Think about this…it is INSANE. I could have caused many many many millions of dollars of damage by obligating the bank to buy overpriced vehicles 3 years in the future. They also didn’t know anything about risk management…I basically looked up/made up rules about asset class allocation - keeping track of different vehicle types and balancing etc etc etc…and I didn’t even really work for the bank. I was an intern. What is also scary? In my ‘fencing’ with other banks there was only one other bank that was any sort of competition. We danced around each other all summer but no other bank was even on the playing field. The summer I did this, the bank I interned at had their car lease loans go up over 10 times in volume. I didn’t train a replacement when I went back to school. These big companies are crazy. I got the feeling it was run by a whole bunch of people who didn’t know what they were doing, concentrated only on the ‘BIG PICTURE’ and were too much into cutting costs on the little things to save money so that huge volumes of cash were left untouched because they didn’t have people look at/do the ‘little things’. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/117 "2012-09-10T14:49:46Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Please define “gross negligence” from a legal perspective and tell us how from the facts that you know that it meets that definition. > > If it got to a jury, they would get very specific instructions on what standards had to be met in order for it to be gross. They would have to use those standards in their deliberations. How about YOU show how it’s NOT gross negligence? Since you know a lawyer, and all. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/118 "2012-09-10T14:52:52Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Again, both sided need to make a good faith offer to each other. Unless the couple is massively unreasonable, it will settle. Are you implying that the couple should purposefully make an unreasonable offer and stick to it so that it will go to trial at which point the jury will almost certainly award then less than they were asking for? I myself would want at least 3 or 4 million, for my own personal stuff, and maybe double that if my spouse had irreplaceable photographs, heirlooms, etc. . So we are looking at probably 3-8 million, if it were me. I really doubt the bank would be willing to settle for that amount, what with their money-grubbing greed. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/119 "2012-09-10T14:54:37Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > People tend to overestimate big companies. > > Personal Anecdote alert - When I was a Junior in College I had an internship at a large bank (not WF). My boss put me on setting prices for car leases. I had 2 areas…I could set the buy-back price and I could set the interest rate. I also had access to a pre-internet but internet-like system that the car dealers used to choose which bank they would use for a lease. > > After ONE day of supervision, I was cut loose and that is all I did all day…without supervision for the entire United States. We are talking over one hundred vehicles a day sometime reaching close to a thousand. > > Think about this…it is INSANE. I could have caused many many many millions of dollars of damage by obligating the bank to buy overpriced vehicles 3 years in the future. They also didn’t know anything about risk management…I basically looked up/made up rules about asset class allocation - keeping track of different vehicle types and balancing etc etc etc…and I didn’t even really work for the bank. I was an intern. > > What is also scary? In my ‘fencing’ with other banks there was only one other bank that was any sort of competition. We danced around each other all summer but no other bank was even on the playing field. The summer I did this, the bank I interned at had their car lease loans go up over 10 times in volume. > > I didn’t train a replacement when I went back to school. > > These big companies are crazy. I got the feeling it was run by a whole bunch of people who didn’t know what they were doing, concentrated only on the ‘BIG PICTURE’ and were too much into cutting costs on the little things to save money so that huge volumes of cash were left untouched because they didn’t have people look at/do the ‘little things’. I used to handle mortgage servicing for B of A, and I could tell similar stories. We had _tremendous_ access to people’s personal data, and the potential for fraud was _enormous_. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/120 "2012-09-10T14:57:38Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > How about YOU show how it’s NOT gross negligence? Since you know a lawyer, and all. I don’t know if it’s gross or not and I am not making a claim one way or the other. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118.md?page=7)