# RO - Wells Fargo forecloses wrong house; discards all contents **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 8, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118 "2012-09-08T20:12:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/121 "2012-09-10T15:03:32Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > I myself would want at least 3 or 4 million, for my own personal stuff, and maybe double that if my spouse had irreplaceable photographs, heirlooms, etc. . So we are looking at probably 3-8 million, if it were me. I really doubt the bank would be willing to settle for that amount, what with their money-grubbing greed. Unless you had rare antiquities, I doubt that you would get that much from a jury. You might end up getting much less than that and have to pay WF their legal fees from what you do get. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/122 "2012-09-10T15:06:32Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Unless you had rare antiquities, I doubt that you would get that much from a jury. You might end up getting much less than that and have to pay WF their legal fees from what you do get. Wow, it’s a good thing we have someone who “knows a lawyer” on this thread… ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/123 "2012-09-10T15:09:12Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Wow, it’s a good thing we have someone who “knows a lawyer” on this thread… You’re the one showing your ass here, dude. I get that you’re angry but we have to live in the real world. You know well that it’s more than I just know a lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/124 "2012-09-10T15:15:47Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > This is one of those things where there wasn’t one person responsible. It was a series of mistakes that led to a giant cluster fuck. Bullshit. Someone had to make a final decision on that foreclosure. Whoever it was needs to be playing hard to get in the jailhouse shower. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/125 "2012-09-10T15:24:12Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > If they can’t come to an agreement, the Court will force a settlement conference where both sides have to make a good faith offer. The couple has to make an offer and it can’t be something ridiculous like five billion dollars. If WF accepts their offer, it’s all over. > > If they can’t come to terms, it will go to trial. The outcome of the trial is how it has to go. (If the jury awards more than the couple’s offer, the bank pays all court costs. If the jury awards less than the bank offer, the couple pays all costs. If it’s in between, each pays their own costs.) > > No one can appeal just because they don’t like how it ended up. Their has to be grounds for appeal which are things like procedural errors or malfeasance on the part of the lawyers or errors in the way the law was applied. > > IANAL so I may have some details wrong but this is basically how it goes. If by “some” you mean “nearly all”, then yes. The court can order the parties to mediate. It can’t force them to make an offer. It certainly can’t force them to make a reasonable offer. You have the details of the California offer-of-compromise rule vaguely correct. A plaintiff which refuses an offer and does not obtain a judgment greater than the offer pays the defendant’s costs _from the point the offer was made_, not all of its costs. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Bricker has a lot more practical legal knowledge than I do (corporate and tax law is incredibly useless for everyday purposes) but I was always under the impression that foreclosures always required a court order. Most states have some form of non-judicial foreclosure procedure for uncontested foreclosures. All states require a court order where the borrower contests the action. > [@al27052](#): > > Just a general question–would a higher court uphold the appeal PURELY on the excessive size of an award? If by “uphold”, you mean “allow to proceed”, then yes. Under certain circumstances, anyway. An appellate court will reduce an award on appeal if the evidence is not sufficient for the jury to conclude that the plaintiff suffered that much in damages; or if it violates the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment (“shocks the conscience”); or, if violates state law in some way (exceeds a statutory cap on damages, for example). > [@al27052](#): > > But I disagree that there’s no gross negligence. Maybe if this only happened one time, sure, I would agree. > > Two times in a row, same house, same people? DAMN. It’s definitely negligence, and I’m pretty sure, as a jury member, I’d be MORE than happy to find it GROSS. > [@al27052](#): > > How about YOU show how it’s NOT gross negligence? Since you know a lawyer, and all. _Gross negligence_ doesn’t mean “negligence that is gross”. It’s a term of art. It means a wilful failure to exercise reasonable care, as opposed to any other failure to exercise reasonable care (plain old negligence). It’s a high bar to meet. There’d have to be some sort of showing that Wells Fargo knew its procedures were inadequate to prevent this sort of thing, and failed to correct them (with adequate notice, not the two days that elapsed between the two fuckups here). There’s also a bigger problem, which is that the people that did the fucking up were apparently outside contractors. There doesn’t seem to be any indication that Wells Fargo gave them the wrong address. In order to impute _their_ screwup to Wells Fargo, you’d have to rely on some sort of negligent hiring claim - which is also a higher bar. Much easier to just settle and move on. [QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] Bullshit. Someone had to make a final decision on that foreclosure. Whoever it was needs to be playing hard to get in the jailhouse shower. [/QUOTE] The OP’s title is misleading. Wells Fargo didn’t foreclose on the wrong house; they foreclosed on the right house, but their cleanout people _emptied_ the wrong house. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/126 "2012-09-10T15:33:40Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > _Gross negligence_ doesn’t mean “negligence that is gross”. It’s a term of art. It means a wilful failure to exercise reasonable care, as opposed to any other failure to exercise reasonable care (plain old negligence). > > It’s a high bar to meet. There’d have to be some sort of showing that Wells Fargo knew its procedures were inadequate to prevent this sort of thing, and failed to correct them (with adequate notice, not the two days that elapsed between the two fuckups here). > > There’s also a bigger problem, which is that the people that did the fucking up were apparently outside contractors. There doesn’t seem to be any indication that Wells Fargo gave them the wrong address. In order to impute _their_ screwup to Wells Fargo, you’d have to rely on some sort of negligent hiring claim - which is also a higher bar. Much easier to just settle and move on. Hang on, you’re telling me you don’t think a good lawyer can prove that Well-Fargo knew that their procedures were inadequate re: the 2ND house-trashing? It seems pretty obvious to me that the bank knew this sort of thing could happen, and had no procedure in place to keep a 2ND house-trashing from happening again, to the same people. NO procedure at all to prevent the 2ND incident seems, to me, like pretty good proof of inadequacy. Something has to exist to be adequate, right? ROFL ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/127 "2012-09-10T15:36:33Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > Bullshit. Someone had to make a final decision on that foreclosure. Whoever it was needs to be playing hard to get in the jailhouse shower. [nitpick] Umm guys did anybody actually read the links given up thread, particularly the link given in post 3 by **voltaire**? WF did not foreclose on the wrong house. They did the foreclosure on the right house ( which was nearby) they sent the cleaning crew to secure the wrong house. Here is the link again. [Wells Fargo Mistakenly Cleans Out Retired Couple's Home Twice - ABC News](http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=17185239) [/nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/128 "2012-09-10T15:41:38Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > [nitpick] Umm guys did anybody actually read the links given up thread, particularly the link given in post 3 by **voltaire**? > WF did not foreclose on the wrong house. They did the foreclosure on the right house ( which was nearby) they sent the cleaning crew to secure the wrong house. > Here is the link again. [Wells Fargo Mistakenly Cleans Out Retired Couple's Home Twice - ABC News](http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=17185239) > [/nitpick] That’s a good point, Rick. Hopefully everyone knows that by now. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/129 "2012-09-10T15:42:14Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > [nitpick] Umm guys did anybody actually read the links given up thread, particularly the link given in post 3 by **voltaire**? > WF did not foreclose on the wrong house. They did the foreclosure on the right house ( which was nearby) they sent the cleaning crew to secure the wrong house. > Here is the link again. [Wells Fargo Mistakenly Cleans Out Retired Couple's Home Twice - ABC News](http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=17185239) > [/nitpick] I have pointed this out more than once. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/130 "2012-09-10T15:44:48Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > If by “some” you mean “nearly all”, then yes. The court can order the parties to mediate. It can’t force them to make an offer. It certainly can’t force them to make a reasonable offer. > > You have the details of the California offer-of-compromise rule vaguely correct. A plaintiff which refuses an offer and does not obtain a judgment greater than the offer pays the defendant’s costs _from the point the offer was made_, not all of its costs. Thanks for the corrections. I don’t think that I was that far off in left field though. Just curious, from what we know so far, what would you estimate that this case is worth? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/131 "2012-09-10T15:47:17Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > You’ve never even **seen** Battlestar Gallactica, have you? :dubious: Just a centon – since when did _Battlestar Galactica_ use parsecs? ---
**Author:** ![cwthree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9de0a6/32.png) [@cwthree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cwthree)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/132 "2012-09-10T16:12:15Z")
> [@Faruiza](#): > > I’m kind of off and on busy over the next couple of days, but I’ll be happy to try and answer questions. **Faruiza** , when things quiet down for you, would you please _please_ \*\*\*please \*\*\*start a “Ask the (former) trashout contractor” thread over in MPSIMS? The Q&A would be great, and too many Dopers will miss it if it’s buried in here. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/133 "2012-09-10T16:18:53Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > [nitpick] Umm guys did anybody actually read the links given up thread, particularly the link given in post 3 by **voltaire**? > WF did not foreclose on the wrong house. They did the foreclosure on the right house ( which was nearby) they sent the cleaning crew to secure the wrong house. > Here is the link again. [Wells Fargo Mistakenly Cleans Out Retired Couple's Home Twice - ABC News](http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=17185239) > [/nitpick] My apologies for messing up the title of the OP. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/134 "2012-09-10T16:31:55Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Just a centon – since when did _Battlestar Galactica_ use parsecs? I think it was in the episode _Spock’s Brain_. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/135 "2012-09-10T16:35:43Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Hang on, you’re telling me you don’t think a good lawyer can prove that Well-Fargo knew that their procedures were inadequate re: the 2ND house-trashing? > > It seems pretty obvious to me that the bank knew this sort of thing could happen, and had no procedure in place to keep a 2ND house-trashing from happening again, to the same people. NO procedure at all to prevent the 2ND incident seems, to me, like pretty good proof of inadequacy. > > Something has to exist to be adequate, right? ROFL Not having a procedure is not evidence of gross negligence. Anyway, that’s beside the point. Neither you nor I have any idea what policies and procedures WF had in place, so if it’s “obvious” it’s because you’re guessing. > [@hajario](#): > > Thanks for the corrections. I don’t think that I was that far off in left field though. > > Just curious, from what we know so far, what would you estimate that this case is worth? At a minimum, the cash value of the contents of the home. Your guess is as good as mine as to what that adds up to, and how much of it the owners can actually document… but it’s probably not much. I’ll just say that **al27052** ’s “multiple millions” valuation is a trifle ambitious. Probably the only way to document the cash value of the home contents will be the estate appraisal from when they inherited it. The real exposure is in punitive damages, which can be ten times the actual damages. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/136 "2012-09-10T17:18:56Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The real exposure is in punitive damages, which can be ten times the actual damages. I thought you said punitive damages would be extremely difficult to get, because you’d have to prove gross negligence. I mean, I doubt, cash value, the contents were worth more than $40K, and that’s probably a generous estimate. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/137 "2012-09-10T17:23:44Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > That’s a good idea. I think that policy will quickly change in some way now that this has happened for the first time… Not likely to happen. Most foreclosures end up the the personal property left out on the curb, or if the city insists they will haul it to a dump. Taking care and packing all the personal property, moving it to a rented storage, would be phenomenally more expensive than that. Financially they would be better off just paying for the occasional “mistake”. That is, unless some legislation or regulation skyrockets up the penalties for mistake. Then bank policies would change, to address a new financial reality. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/138 "2012-09-10T17:25:09Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > I thought you said punitive damages would be extremely difficult to get, because you’d have to prove gross negligence. > > I mean, I doubt, cash value, the contents were worth more than $40K, and that’s probably a generous estimate. Personally, I think doing it _twice_ to the same people is ample evidence of gross negligence. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/139 "2012-09-10T17:29:10Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Not likely to happen. Most foreclosures end up the the personal property left out on the curb, or if the city insists they will haul it to a dump. Taking care and packing all the personal property, moving it to a rented storage, would be phenomenally more expensive than that. Financially they would be better off just paying for the occasional “mistake”. > > That is, unless some legislation or regulation skyrockets up the penalties for mistake. Then bank policies would change, to address a new financial reality. The changed policy I meant would be some sort of check to make sure that the wrong house doesn’t get emptied. Whatever happened to cause this screw-up shouldn’t happen again. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/140 "2012-09-10T17:29:49Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > I thought you said punitive damages would be extremely difficult to get, because you’d have to prove gross negligence. > > I mean, I doubt, cash value, the contents were worth more than $40K, and that’s probably a generous estimate. The great thing about message boards is that when you’re not sure what somebody said, you can go back and check. I didn’t mention punitive damages at all in my first post. Glancing over the applicable California law, though, the standard there is clear and convincing evidence of “oppression, fraud, or malice”, which is a really, really high bar. [QUOTE=Boyo Jim] Personally, I think doing it twice to the same people is ample evidence of gross negligence. [/QUOTE] _Whose_ gross negligence is it evidence of? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118.md?page=8)