# RO - Wells Fargo forecloses wrong house; discards all contents **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 8, 2012, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118 "2012-09-08T20:12:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/141 "2012-09-10T17:32:13Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Personally, I think doing it _twice_ to the same people is ample evidence of gross negligence. Not legally according to what **RNATB** explained. Of course with all of this, new evidence can come to light which will significantly change things. ---
**Author:** ![Reyemile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@Reyemile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reyemile)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/142 "2012-09-10T17:35:44Z")
Reading through this thread, I don’t see that this question has been answered (sorry if it has): If the cleanout people had the _right_ address of a house that had _actually_ been forclosed, would breaking in, taking all the stuff, and \*destroying \*it have been lawful? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/143 "2012-09-10T17:44:16Z")
> [@Reyemile](#): > > Reading through this thread, I don’t see that this question has been answered (sorry if it has): > > If the cleanout people had the _right_ address of a house that had _actually_ been forclosed, would breaking in, taking all the stuff, and \*destroying \*it have been lawful? In California, [yes](http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=civ&group=01001-02000&file=1980-1991), provided (1), the borrowers had been served with an eviction notice; (2), the bank had given them 14 days’ notice of their intent to dispose of the property; and (3), the property was believed to be worth less than $300. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/144 "2012-09-10T17:46:13Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > In California, [yes](http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=civ&group=01001-02000&file=1980-1991), provided (1), the borrowers had been served with an eviction notice; (2), the bank had given them 14 days’ notice of their intent to dispose of the property; and (3), the property was believed to be worth less than $300. (3) is a problem here but that would probably lie with the contractor. I find it hard to believe that a garage full of tools was worth less than $300. I also find it hard to believe that they destroyed everything. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/145 "2012-09-10T18:13:13Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The great thing about message boards is that when you’re not sure what somebody said, you can go back and check. I didn’t mention punitive damages at all in my first post. > > Glancing over the applicable California law, though, the standard there is clear and convincing evidence of “oppression, fraud, or malice”, which is a really, really high bar. > > _Whose_ gross negligence is it evidence of? Clearly there’s no fraud, probably not malice. What about “oppression”? Sounds very poorly-written to me, unless there’s some special legal definition of “oppression” that I’m not aware of. But my point still stands, that the house contents were probably worth no more than 40K at the most. Wouldn’t you agree? ---
**Author:** ![Reyemile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@Reyemile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reyemile)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/146 "2012-09-10T18:45:33Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Clearly there’s no fraud, probably not malice. What about “oppression”? Sounds very poorly-written to me, unless there’s some special legal definition of “oppression” that I’m not aware of. > > But my point still stands, that the house contents were probably worth no more than 40K at the most. Wouldn’t you agree? Per the above stuff, valuating a garage full of tools at less the $300 is pretty clearly evidence of gross negligence. There is no conceivable way that was a mistake; they just didn’t care. However, that only leaves the contractor on the hook–proving Well Fargo liable for negligent hiring will be tougher, and I doubt the contractor’s pockets are that deep. ---
**Author:** ![VunderBob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/839c29/32.png) [@VunderBob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VunderBob)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/147 "2012-09-10T18:50:34Z")
[Daily Mail article on the situation](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2200508/Wells-Fargo-Senior-citizen-devastated-home-built-teenager-ransacked-bank.html?openGraphAuthor=%2Fhome%2Fsearch.html%3Fs%3D%26authornamef%3DHugo%2BGye) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/148 "2012-09-10T18:51:15Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Clearly there’s no fraud, probably not malice. What about “oppression”? Sounds very poorly-written to me, unless there’s some special legal definition of “oppression” that I’m not aware of. I would have thought you’d know better by now. It was written in 1872, for what it’s worth. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/149 "2012-09-10T18:57:04Z")
[QUOTE=Reyemile] Per the above stuff, valuating a garage full of tools at less the $300 is pretty clearly evidence of gross negligence. There is no conceivable way that was a mistake; they just didn’t care. [/QUOTE] Really? How much is a garage full of tools actually worth, then? Bear in mind the person who bought the tools has been dead for 5 years. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/150 "2012-09-10T19:51:20Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Really? How much is a garage full of tools actually worth, then? Bear in mind the person who bought the tools has been dead for 5 years. Why would that matter, are these tools equipped with biometric security? For $300 (new/replacement cost) you can fill a 4 drawer bench top toolbox with wrenches, sockets and screwdrivers. That’s about it. Throw in some shovels, rakes, hammers, saws, drills, clamps, etc. and you’re talking big money, especially if you’re talking replacement cost instead of used cost. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/151 "2012-09-10T19:55:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Really? How much is a garage full of tools actually worth, then? Bear in mind the person who bought the tools has been dead for 5 years. FWIW the last time I inventoried my auto repair tools it was about $87,000. That was about 20 years ago. That number does not include my homeowners tools. With inflation I would say my garage full of tools would run about 150 large to replace. ---
**Author:** ![gotpasswords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@gotpasswords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gotpasswords)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/152 "2012-09-10T20:06:27Z")
As I understand this: Bank forecloses on House A appropriately. Bank hires someone (apparently through Cityside Management, according to the Daily Mail article) to do a trash-out of House A. Cityside or their subcontractor plugs the address for House A into their GPS and drives out there. They arrive at House B, which is where the GPS tells them to go and they “secure” and empty the wrong house, not knowing they were at the wrong place. If anyone needs to be sued, it’s Navteq and whatever brand of GPS the contractor was using, and the people that laid out the streets around 29 Palms. There is a Winter Rd that appears to be an extension of Winters Rd and Winters Rd has a few odd forks in it. I could easily see someone getting misled and end up at the wrong place. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/153 "2012-09-10T20:15:16Z")
**Hajario** , stop making sense, you are harshing the buzz of too many RO’ers… Just for the hell of it…found the address of the Tjosaas’ house in 29 Palms and [google-mapped](https://maps.google.com/maps?q=71688+Winters+Road,+Twentynine+Palms,+CA&hl=en&ll=34.236712,-116.096585&spn=0.006927,0.013937&sll=34.110668,-115.95108&sspn=0.444006,0.891953&oq=71688+Winters+Road&hnear=71688+Winters+Rd,+Twentynine+Palms,+California+92277&t=h&z=17) it…just a few other homes in within the 1/8 mile range (“10 acres away from the actually foreclosed home”…measuring distance with area…wtf?). Also noted that Winters Road is also called: Winter Road El Sereno Road Meldora Road (further West) Anaheim Road (even further West) I wonder if it played a part in the confusion, or even transposed numbers on the address? **Fruiza** asked who were the trashers, and in the OP’s video, I saw “Cityside Management Corp.” from Corona, CA on the notice with the address scribbled on the top of it. Not sure whether that was the first contractor or the second contractor. Maybe this might be of help on why this unfortunate thing happened. Personally, this is definitely civil liability, not criminal, and I think settling from $50k-$300k in an undisclosed settlement will be reached, based on what I know personally from a 7 year suit that I (plaintiff) settled for within the San Bernardino Co. court system, where the Tjosaas’ house is…heh…with my luck I might be a jury member if it ever got that far…which I seriously doubt. As for Corporations being considered “a person”, one must not forget that it is essential for corporations to be considered as such in order to create and execute contracts between corporations and people, and corporations with other corporations…otherwise, products and services could not legally be given or received for payment. Otherwise, can you imagine 105,000 employees selling one car to a person and each one reporting their fraction of that sale, the fraction that they are liable for, the length of time to store each of these agreements, etc.? Damn…think this through, people. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/154 "2012-09-10T20:24:03Z")
> [@Reyemile](#): > > Per the above stuff, valuating a garage full of tools at less the $300 is pretty clearly evidence of gross negligence. There is no conceivable way that was a mistake; they just didn’t care.. Yes. Hell, a crack house/trailer probably has more than 300 dollars worth of used shit in it. Like you said, they just didn’t care or as the former “trasher” guy noted, they should have damn well known that something wasn’t kosher about this forclosure. As he noted, I seriously doubt very many, if any for that matter, foreclosures look like a normal house where the people that live there just happen to be away at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/155 "2012-09-10T21:01:47Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Painful to read?? You should be arrested for slander! Oh noes I don’t want to go to jail! > [@Yeticus\_Rex](#): > > Also noted that Winters Road is also called: > Winter Road > El Sereno Road > Meldora Road (further West) > Anaheim Road (even further West) > > I wonder if it played a part in the confusion, or even transposed numbers on the address? That is kind of what I figured. There is some screwy numbering that confuses the hell out of GPS. If the road goes through several towns it is possible that the same street number is repeated. ---
**Author:** ![Reyemile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@Reyemile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reyemile)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/156 "2012-09-10T21:03:52Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Oh noes I don’t want to go to jail! > > That is kind of what I figured. There is some screwy numbering that confuses the hell out of GPS. If the road goes through several towns it is possible that the same street number is repeated. I almost missed a job interview because it was at the OTHER 29 Winter Street, across town. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/157 "2012-09-10T21:07:13Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > For the contractor - an address, picture and potentially a GPS should be enough. Would you expect the contractor to go to the court house to verify that the foreclosure was filed correctly? Yes, absolutely, positively. If the penalty for a mistake was severe enough, no contractor would touch the contract without verifying the information first, or having an insurance policy to cover mistakes like this. ---
**Author:** ![Faruiza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecd19e/32.png) [@Faruiza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Faruiza)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/158 "2012-09-10T21:36:27Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Great post. The contractor could share some blame too. Remember though that no one lived in that house. The owner only went to the place a two or three times a year to putter in the garage with his tools. He just stored stuff there. It may not have looked lived in. Thanks! And true, of course, it might not have appeared lived in. I guess at that point, the only thing I can say is that anyone with a brain cell would have felt something was just…off. Then again, I’ve met very few people in that industry that can be said to have much sentient intelligence at all. As for checklists, yep. You should see all the shit we have to fill in on reports. By the end of my time in the biz, I had gotten down to just doing yard maintenance, but the reports were still pages long, even for properties I was doing every two weeks for a long time. That said, the information I get from the company that hires me is an address and a google street view. If there’s anything that isn’t quite right, I’m supposed to call the company right away and they’re supposed to straighten things out with the bank. Sometimes someone is in the property, sometimes there’s locks where there shouldn’t be any, sometimes the code on the lockbox is wrong…lots of things can be wrong, but maybe the banks just rely on the fact that somebody, somewhere will engage their brain and catch a mistake. I don’t know Cityside Mgmt. Corp. It should not hearten anyone to know that I expected that the deed was perpetrated by the stupidest, most deranged asshole I’ve ever had the displeasure of being legally related to, and that there’s more than one of him, apparently. Oh yeah, and I imagine it’s standard to carry (I have one) a special key that opens lots of locks. Bad people have keys to your shit, folks. **cwthree** , I’ll be happy to do that! I thought about it once, but then wondered what anyone could possibly want to know about that job. Then again, I’ve seen some dwellings that would make your hair fall out. ETA: Yep. We had to carry a LOT of insurance. Had to be bonded, insured for at least a million. ---
**Author:** ![Faruiza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecd19e/32.png) [@Faruiza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Faruiza)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/159 "2012-09-10T21:45:50Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Yes. > > Hell, a crack house/trailer probably has more than 300 dollars worth of used shit in it. > > Like you said, they just didn’t care or as the former “trasher” guy noted, they should have damn well known that something wasn’t kosher about this forclosure. As he noted, I seriously doubt very many, if any for that matter, foreclosures look like a normal house where the people that live there just happen to be away at the moment. Yep, 300 bucks ain’t a high bar at all. And yep, 98% of the time, it’s pretty obvious that the people have left for good, or are at least expected to continue breaking into the house to retrieve more and more stuff even though it’s not theirs anymore and is totally illegal. Most of the places are wrecked. A couple of times I’ve run into former tenants that are back to try and get in the house, and they get all blustery and righteous until they figure out that I KNOW what they’re doing, I’m supposed to be there and they aren’t. I’d not had to go so far as to call the cops, but I knew it was just a matter of time. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118/160 "2012-09-10T23:43:27Z")
> [@Rick](#): > > FWIW the last time I inventoried my auto repair tools it was about $87,000. That was about 20 years ago. > That number does not include my homeowners tools. > With inflation I would say my garage full of tools would run about 150 large to replace. What basis did you value the tools at? Are you suggesting that your garage full of tools is representative of other garages full of tools? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ro-wells-fargo-forecloses-wrong-house-discards-all-contents/634118.md?page=9)