# Road courtesy maneuver: Naughty but nice **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 18, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187 "2009-10-18T01:20:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/81 "2009-10-20T14:20:06Z")
Horrible, horrible idea. Overtaking on the oncoming-traffic side of the road is one thing; you’re moving quickly and can switch lanes quickly if necessary. Sitting at a near or complete stop in the oncoming-traffic lane means you absolutely cannot switch lanes quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Trom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Trom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trom)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/82 "2009-10-20T14:47:00Z")
> [@Sailboat](#): > > I often see people who are driving in ways that would be fine IF they had correctly judged the conditions, position, and speed of other motorists…but their judgment turns out to be wrong. They just didn’t see X or think about Y before beginning their maneuver. > > On the occasions when it turns out you’ve misjudged the “perfect” visibility for your farmer’s turn, is it courteous to release the fireball _before_ rolling over six times, or does one wait until _after_ the crumpled wreckage stops sliding? I assume you only ever cross the street at marked crosswalks and always wait for the walk signal. It really seems that nobody is going to change the others’ minds on this one. Out of curiosity…is there anyone that regularly drives in a rural area that DOESN’T turn this way? ---
**Author:** ![Translucent\_Daydream](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/translucent_daydream/32/16170_2.png) [@Translucent\_Daydream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Translucent_Daydream)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/83 "2009-10-20T15:28:21Z")
This happens everyday in rural Texas where I live. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/84 "2009-10-20T15:41:28Z")
If its really rural and very little traffic, why is everyone still riding everyones ass ? Which is what is causing the problem in first place. If the only other driver around, the jerk close behind you, wasnt riding your bumper, he wouldnt have to slow down in order for you to execute a normal turn. ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/85 "2009-10-20T17:56:40Z")
> [@Trom](#): > > It really seems that nobody is going to change the others’ minds on this one. Of course not. Some people don’t understand that roads like the one I linked to in post #77 exist. Me? I’m surprised that the google car made it that far out into the boonies. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/86 "2009-10-20T18:14:26Z")
Seen it and done it, many times. I grew up in rural western WI, and my parents live 4 miles out of town anyway. Their driveway is set up such that it’s pretty much a U turn when you’re turning left into it - you slow down, turn on the blinker, turn left into the driveway and keep turning until you’re pretty much pointed back the way you came, then proceed up the hill to the house. It’s not a turn that can be completed at any kind of speed; you pretty much have to slow to under 10 MPH to complete it. It’s nice to save the people behind you having to slow down that much too, if at all possible. We also do it there because the location of their driveway is problematic, too. Their driveway is pretty much in the middle of a long curve - at the far approach, you can’t see far enough around the curve, but closer to the driveway there’s a ton of visibility for the road ahead. This positioning also means that it’s not uncommon for other drivers coming up from a ways behind me to be taken slightly unawares while I’m turning left into my parents’, and have to break more than they’d like while I complete my turn. Since I can see enough ahead at my point of turning, I’ll do the farmer’s turn to minimize the possibility of being rear-ended from someone behind me who’s not paying as much attention as most. Third point: this is rural western WI. If you’re not being tailgated by someone from Illinois, then you’re probably being tailgated by some brain-dead high schooler who’s pickup truck has more brains than he has. Neither one of these two classes of people like to slow down much, even if I turn on my signal well in advance of the turn (which I always do, since it is hidden some). I always find it best to use the farmer’s turn to let them go on their merry way. Oh! And on edit - the four miles of road to my parents is fairly twisty, so there’s not many passing zones. If the tailgaters are already mad at me because they can’t pass, turning my blinker on isn’t going to help matters any. So I make it as painless as possible for the both of us. **Trom** ’s right - in the appropriate locations, these turns are usual and expected and absolutely don’t raise eyebrows at all. If I used it here in Mpls, certainly there’d be confusion, and I should probably be cited. But in Durand? No problem. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/87 "2009-10-20T18:41:31Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Horrible, horrible idea. Overtaking on the oncoming-traffic side of the road is one thing; you’re moving quickly and can switch lanes quickly if necessary. Sitting at a near or complete stop in the oncoming-traffic lane means you absolutely cannot switch lanes quickly. Not sure if I’ve ever done the “farmer’s turn.” Maybe a time or two over several decades. But, compared to passing: –Your view isn’t blocked by a slow car directly in front of you. –If you’re going 15 mph you’re more likely to survive a quick exit into a ditch than if you’re going 75. … and 15 mph plus 65mph = an 80 mph head on collision; 65 + 75 = 130 mph (not factoring in any brake slamming.) –Passing has a greater opportunity for surprising the other driver. (Yep) You can generally tell if something is stopped in your lane up ahead, but if a car pops out from behind another car 50 yds ahead it won’t be pretty. Really, this seems like one of those things that is common in certain places because it works and is helpful and only suffers from theoretical drawbacks, rather than actual ones. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/88 "2009-10-20T18:43:54Z")
> [@Trom](#): > > It really seems that nobody is going to change the others’ minds on this one. Out of curiosity…is there anyone that regularly drives in a rural area that DOESN’T turn this way? Sure, driven in rural areas for half of my driving life and never seen it done. The safe way of doing this is as mentioned by another poster above, indicate right and pull off on to the shoulder, wait for the other car to pass, then indicate left and make your left turn. It achieves exactly the same result but it keeps everything in line with what is expected. **omgzebras** is kind of missing the point a bit about being a better driver than everyone else. The vast majority of drivers think they are better than everyone else, you can’t _all_ be right. The truth is that _all_ people make mistakes regardless of how good they are or think they are. Everyone who has an accident probably thought it was clear, thought they had room, thought it was safe etc. So when you are driving along thinking there’s no way you can have an accident here, just remember that many accidents start out with the participants thinking everything is AOK. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/89 "2009-10-20T19:34:13Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > The logical endpoint of that sort of principle is: That which is not required is forbidden. I suppose you may be right, but the logical endpoint of “I can drive left of center whenever I deem it safe and proper” is lots of folks getting killed or injured. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/90 "2009-10-20T19:40:29Z")
[quote=“1920s Style “Death Ray”, post:88, topic:514187”] **omgzebras** is kind of missing the point a bit about being a better driver than everyone else. The vast majority of drivers think they are better than everyone else, you can’t _all_ be right. The truth is that _all_ people make mistakes regardless of how good they are or think they are. Everyone who has an accident probably thought it was clear, thought they had room, thought it was safe etc. So when you are driving along thinking there’s no way you can have an accident here, just remember that many accidents start out with the participants thinking everything is AOK. [/QUOTE] Bingo. Any “procedural safety expert” from the FAA or NASA would get a bad case of the vapors reading this thread. The way to analyze any procedure IS NOT can you get away with it when conditions are optimum and everybody does everything right. Which is stupid when you think about it, because just about anything is safe when “done right” by definition. Its WHAT happens when things are miss judged or dont go perfect or someone slips up or makes the wrong assumption. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/91 "2009-10-20T20:25:14Z")
[quote=“1920s Style “Death Ray”, post:88, topic:514187”] Sure, driven in rural areas for half of my driving life and never seen it done. The safe way of doing this is as mentioned by another poster above, indicate right and pull off on to the shoulder, wait for the other car to pass, then indicate left and make your left turn. It achieves exactly the same result but it keeps everything in line with what is expected. [/QUOTE] That wouldn’t work around here. The guy behind you would stop and ask if you needed help. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/92 "2009-10-20T20:46:06Z")
Nice of you to be that courteous, but sounds dangerous and probably a little alarming to the people behind you if they’re not from the area. Around here it’s not that unusual to come upon two cars stopped talking to each other in the middle of the road. Or a cow. So you do have to be alert for stuff in your lane. ---
**Author:** ![MrSquishy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9e5f3/32.png) [@MrSquishy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrSquishy)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/93 "2009-10-20T21:17:52Z")
> [@omgzebras](#): > > If you aren’t able to see cars coming at you from the opposite lane and correctly judge their positions and speed you’re going to have problems making normal left turns also. God help you if you ever try to pass anybody. The problem, as mentioned by somebody else upthread, is not whether there are cars coming at you in the opposite lane. It’s the guy turning right out of the road you’re turning on to, who doesn’t see you coming because he’s only looking left. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/94 "2009-10-20T22:11:53Z")
> [@MrSquishy](#): > > The problem, as mentioned by somebody else upthread, is not whether there are cars coming at you in the opposite lane. It’s the guy turning right out of the road you’re turning on to, who doesn’t see you coming because he’s only looking left. I don’t think anybody’s making the farmer’s turn unless they also have a clear view of the road on their left as well as the road ahead. That’s the case with my turn – it’s flat and I can see for two miles in one direction and nearly a mile in the other. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/95 "2009-10-20T22:47:51Z")
It seems to me that most of the arguments marshalled against doing the “farmer’s turn” could also be marshalled against passing another car: Even if the road is clear and open and passing isn’t forbidden, you can’t be really sure it is safe. You might have missed seeing something. And if you do it and get away with it, you’ll be inclined to do it in less safe circumstances. Or someone else will see you doing it safely, and be tempted to do it in less ideal circumstances. And some people will be confused by it. And so on. However, I can’t see the citizenry putting up with criminalizing all passing of other cars on two lane roads. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/96 "2009-10-20T22:50:32Z")
> [@AuntiePam](#): > > I don’t think anybody’s making the farmer’s turn unless they also have a clear view of the road on their left as well as the road ahead. That’s the case with my turn – it’s flat and I can see for two miles in one direction and nearly a mile in the other. Same here. There is one road that I regularly do this on. And in any case, the person pulling out should look to the right as well in case someone is passing on the main road. I wouldn’t do that turn if someone was waiting to pull out. I wouldn’t even pass. (I wonder what the rules are in that situation. For passing). It’s well understood here, and I do it for the safety of myself and others. I will say that I absolutly hate it when someone waves you through an intersection when they clearly have the right of way. This is different. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/97 "2009-10-20T23:38:20Z")
IMO, the biggest problem with the plan is this: If the dude behind you makes a mistake and hits you because he doesn’t notice your turn signal, you’ll probably survive. Objects in motion tend to stay in motion and all that. If, on the other hand, YOU make a mistake, you’ll hit someone head-on. And that would be bad. For your health and your wallet. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2009, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/98 "2009-10-20T23:49:14Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > It seems to me that most of the arguments marshalled against doing the “farmer’s turn” could also be marshalled against passing another car: Even if the road is clear and open and passing isn’t forbidden, you can’t be really sure it is safe. You might have missed seeing something. And if you do it and get away with it, you’ll be inclined to do it in less safe circumstances. Or someone else will see you doing it safely, and be tempted to do it in less ideal circumstances. And some people will be confused by it. And so on. > > However, I can’t see the citizenry putting up with criminalizing all passing of other cars on two lane roads. Yeah, the problem with this is you either gotta pass on the left or pass on the right. On a two lane road you pass on the left. Unless its “clear” and someone is doing a “farmers” turn. In which case you pass on the right. “Clear” is a rather nebulous legal and situational definition. Using “clear” to decide when you can pass is bad enough. Using “clear” to allow when passing is allowed AND define which side you are supposed to do it on is downright retarded IMO. ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/99 "2009-10-21T01:40:11Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > If, on the other hand, YOU make a mistake, you’ll hit someone head-on. Again: [Who am I going to hit?](http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=45.713072,-94.027948&spn=0,359.912109&z=14&layer=c&cbll=45.713064,-94.027959&panoid=nMQdIjH_PZeD_9cpEe6a0w&cbp=12,156.17,,0,5) Maybe you’ve never played with google maps before, so go on and give it a go. Use your arrow keys to take a little spin around that intersection; go for a “walk”. It’s 10 miles between the stop signs; take a virtual drive. Tell me how many cars you saw in that 10 miles, tell me who I’m going to hit head-on, and tell me how I’m not going to see an oncoming car from miles away. Frankly, the odds of dying in a wreck in regular traffic while trying to drive TO the road in that link are significantly higher than killing someone ON that road while making a “famers turn”. ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2009, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/100 "2009-10-21T01:49:10Z")
> [@MrSquishy](#): > > The problem, as mentioned by somebody else upthread, is not whether there are cars coming at you in the opposite lane. It’s the guy turning right out of the road you’re turning on to, who doesn’t see you coming because he’s only looking left. As others have also mentioned, this is the same hazard you encounter when passing. You obviously have to look ahead to ensure that the road is clear, yes? And as for a car coming onto the road from the side street, you don’t look for that when you’re about to pass? Of course you do. I’m not going to do a turn like this when there’s a windbreak blocking visibility to the street I’m turning onto, just as I wouldn’t pass when I can’t see if somebody might be pulling out ahead. > [@PunditLisa](#): > > If, on the other hand, YOU make a mistake, you’ll hit someone head-on. And that would be bad. For your health and your wallet. But this same mistake could also happen anytime you’re passing a car. It could also happen on a normal left turn only instead of getting hit head on you’ll be t-boned. I understand that everybody thinks they’re a good driver. I understand that those same people, myself included, are likely to be wrong sometimes. But for this maneuver you are using a skill set so basic that if you’re going to screw it up on a farmer’s turn, you’d also screw it up for a normal left turn or a passing maneuver because they require you to pay attention to the exact same things to be safe. The other arguments, that drivers may not expect you to do it, don’t make sense to me either. If they are for some reason going to whip out into the left lane when you have _already pulled out into it_, what makes you think they wouldn’t have whipped out into the left lane when you were making a normal left turn and smashed into you anyway? As an added benefit, you are also farther away from the people that don’t slow down and wait when you make a left turn but instead slew around you on the right hand shoulder. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187.md?page=6)