# Road courtesy maneuver: Naughty but nice **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 18, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187 "2009-10-18T01:20:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/121 "2009-10-22T16:29:50Z")
> [@PunditLisa](#): > > Actually, the “simplest” maneuver in this whole scenario is performed by the dude behind you. And, yet, people feel the need to circumvent the rules in order to save him from having to…wait for it…_decelerate._ Talk about a basic skill set! Actually, **I** never said _anything_ about who is performing…wait for it… the “simplest” maneuver. It’s true! My point was, as it has been all along, that a farmer’s turn requires you to make the exact same visual checks and the exact same calculations of other driver’s speeds as a left turn or passing another car. If you can do the one safely then you can do the other safely. If one is inherently unsafe, then so is the other. Keep in mind that I live somewhere where you can pass through a rural intersection. If you don’t, then yes, I can see this being more dangerous than normally passing because you don’t have the side-traffic variable. For people in states with laws similar to mine though, where people commonly and legally pass through rural intersections, I think the risk level is equivalent. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/122 "2009-10-22T16:30:33Z")
[Discussion about A-pillar blind spots.](http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=61651) > [@](#): > > “It’s the same in my C-Max - huge A-Pillars, big enough to hide a car behind. I’ve had a couple of scares when a car suddenly appears from my blind spot, so I’ve now taken to leaning forward at junctions to move my view past the pillars.” [Advice on avoiding A-pillar blind spots.](http://www.articlealley.com/article_645459_31.html) > [@](#): > > …the A pillar has become thicker and has helped decrease driver vision. In fact road safety activist are now claiming that the modern A pillar has created a blind spot the obstructs the vision the numerous modern car drivers. > [@](#): > > you should be aware of the potential restriction the A pillar may cause in your ability the scan the road ahead. > [@](#): > > When driving towards a road junction it is wise to look further ahead and scan left to right as you continue to drive forward. That way you will see things through the windscreen before they become lost behind the pillars. Note the following: > [@](#): > > A study commissioned by the Department of Transport from the Transport Research Laboratory found that, while the A pillar can obscure vision, there is rarely only one factor which contributes to an accident. Indeed the A-pillar blind spot alone won’t necessarily cause an accident, but take the blind spot, add it to someone driving on the wrong side of the road (either overtaking or doing a farmers turn), chuck in a car on the crossing road who’s driver doesn’t bother to look right before turning because they think there won’t be anything there, and you have the ingredients for an accident. You can’t control the fact your car has forward blind spots, but you can control how you drive the car. You can avoid overtaking through intersections, and you can avoid doing unexpected manoeuvres such as farmer’s turns. You can also keep a good scan, move your head to look around the A-pillar, actively look for things that are not cars such as bikes, bicycles, and pedestrians. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/123 "2009-10-22T16:35:13Z")
> [@omgzebras](#): > > Keep in mind that I live somewhere where you can pass through a rural intersection. If you don’t, then yes, I can see this being more dangerous than normally passing because you don’t have the side-traffic variable. For people in states with laws similar to mine though, where people commonly and legally pass through rural intersections, I think the risk level is equivalent. Just because something is legal, doesn’t make it safe. I agree that the risk level of passing through an intersection is roughly equivalent to doing a farmer’s turn, that’s why I don’t think people should do either. ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/124 "2009-10-22T16:51:42Z")
None of you have clicked my link to see what we’re talking about when we say “rural”, have you. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/125 "2009-10-22T17:10:50Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Not true, though. A driver at a safe distance behind will still have to decelerate for the person turning. Application of the 3 second rule, along with basic physics, demonstrates this to be so. Thats the MINIMUM. Its not like its a law be up somebodys butt. If you dont wanna be bothered to slow down when somebody ahead of you turns, don’t follow so close. If its the big city, yeah, you cant leave a big gap. If ruralsville, you can leave a nice gap. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/126 "2009-10-22T17:19:08Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Thats the MINIMUM. > > Its not like its a law be up somebodys butt. > > If you dont wanna be bothered to slow down when somebody ahead of you turns, don’t follow so close. > > If its the big city, yeah, you cant leave a big gap. If ruralsville, you can leave a nice gap. But what if you’re doing 55 and he’s doing 53, so eventually you catch up, and then plan to pass? Is that allowed in your world? There are good arguments to be marshalled against farmer’s turns, but IMHO, that’s not one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/127 "2009-10-22T17:20:34Z")
[quote=“1920s Style “Death Ray”, post:123, topic:514187”] Just because something is legal, doesn’t make it safe. I agree that the risk level of passing through an intersection is roughly equivalent to doing a farmer’s turn, that’s why I don’t think people should do either. [/QUOTE] It’s legal to go 65, and even 70 on many expressways in the US. But it is definitely safer to go 55. Why aren’t we all doing that, then? ---
**Author:** ![Snickers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/128 "2009-10-22T17:59:09Z")
> [@chique](#): > > None of you have clicked my link to see what we’re talking about when we say “rural”, have you. QFT. Seriously. Absolutely, no one’s going to be doing this in downtown Minneapolis - as I said above, it would be irresponsible and I should be cited for doing so. It’s only recently that my home town had any stoplights at all - there was one flashing light for a weird 3-way stop we had, but other than that, there were only stopsigns. They replaced a bridge and rejiggered the road and now bam! There’s two whole stoplights in town. Real ones, with turn signals and everything. Hell, now that I think about it, they’re the only two stoplights in the whole damn county. You have to drive 20 miles to find another town with a significant amount of stoplights. It’s rural. Really, really rural. Forget what you think about rural, then decrease the population again by half, and you might be close. Rural. While sure, I’ll admit that the farmer’s turn is probably unsafe, it’s no more unsafe than a regular left turn. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/129 "2009-10-22T18:12:41Z")
> [@chique](#): > > None of you have clicked my link to see what we’re talking about when we say “rural”, have you. I did. I tried to get a ground view of the intersection where I make a farmer’s turn, to provide another example of unimpeded vision, and I couldn’t get it to work. How did you do that? ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/130 "2009-10-22T18:15:48Z")
If the Google car hasn’t made it to your neck of the woods you won’t have street view. Zoom out a bit, so you can see your entire state. Over on the left of the map you’ll see a little yellow guy. Click and hold him and wait for the blue lines to show up - that’s where street view works. Then zoom back in to your area to see if there’s any blue lines and set the little yellow guy down on one of 'em. Clear as mud? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/131 "2009-10-22T19:33:33Z")
Never mind. I’ll be back. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/132 "2009-10-22T19:47:34Z")
Weird. I can see my intersection, but I can’t copy the link. It wants to be Chique’s link. When I delete Chique’s link and go back to my intersection, there’s no link to copy – the address bar stays blank. Anyway, my intersection looks exactly the same as Chique’s – flatness all around. ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/133 "2009-10-22T19:50:57Z")
Oooh, I know what you’re doing… On the top right of the map - in the light blue bar - it says print, send, and link. Click link, then C&P. ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/134 "2009-10-22T21:03:18Z")
Done it, been behind others doing it, no big deal. I think the nervous-nelly drivers posting here are imagining something much more complex than what really happens. You’re in the other lane for all of 2-3 seconds before you turn. Of course, if you can’t see that it’s clear ahead and if there is someone stopped at (or you can’t see if someone might be approaching) the cross intersection, you just don’t do it. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/135 "2009-10-22T21:23:03Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > But what if you’re doing 55 and he’s doing 53, so eventually you catch up, and then plan to pass? Is that allowed in your world? > > There are good arguments to be marshalled against farmer’s turns, but IMHO, that’s not one of them. No Thats an argument for leaving enough space so that no one “HAS” TO DO a farmers turn. Either don’t ride their ass or quit dicking around an actually pass them. ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/136 "2009-10-22T21:35:39Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Either don’t ride their ass or quit dicking around an actually pass them. Wouldn’t it be nice if we could control the drivers behind us? ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/137 "2009-10-22T21:39:30Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > No > > Thats an argument for leaving enough space so that no one “HAS” TO DO a farmers turn. > > Either don’t ride their ass or quit dicking around an actually pass them. In a perfect world. But haven’t you noticed the tendency for drivers to bunch up, even in the middle of no where? It happens everywere I’ve ever driven. Either people are afraid to pass or there isn’t a good chance to, and many drivers just aren’t a good judge of safe following distance. There are definitely times when it’s not a good idea, but I don’t mind saving a guy behind me a little effort if I can. Just like that tractor driver doesn’t have to pull way over on the shoulder to let me pass, and that trucker doesn’t have to flash his lights at me to let me know there’s a cop around the bend. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/138 "2009-10-22T22:32:32Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > In a perfect world. But haven’t you noticed the tendency for drivers to bunch up, even in the middle of no where? It happens everywere I’ve ever driven. Either people are afraid to pass or there isn’t a good chance to, and many drivers just aren’t a good judge of safe following distance. > > There are definitely times when it’s not a good idea, but I don’t mind saving a guy behind me a little effort if I can. Just like that tractor driver doesn’t have to pull way over on the shoulder to let me pass, and that trucker doesn’t have to flash his lights at me to let me know there’s a cop around the bend. And then when I DO go to pass, somebody does a shitty not paying any attention farmers turn when I am beside them and sideswipes me. IMO farmers turns are stupid and they even make normal passing more dangerous than it needs to be. But, no its not the farmers turn thats dangerous, its the passing on the left ! Maybe we should make it so that when you want to pass someone you honk your horn, they move over into the left hand lane so you can do a “farmers pass” safely on the right and eliminate those dangerous sane person passes on the left. Please don’t save me any effort. I’d rather live thank you very much. ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/139 "2009-10-22T22:35:38Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > And then when I DO go to pass, somebody does a shitty not paying any attention farmers turn when I am beside them and sideswipes me. Should have had your blinker on. ---
**Author:** ![Terraplane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/74df32/32.png) [@Terraplane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terraplane)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/140 "2009-10-22T23:00:13Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > And then when I DO go to pass, somebody does a shitty not paying any attention farmers turn when I am beside them and sideswipes me. Do you pass through intersections? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187.md?page=8)