# Road courtesy maneuver: Naughty but nice **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 18, 2009, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187 "2009-10-18T01:20:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/161 "2009-10-23T23:21:51Z")
[quote=“1920s Style “Death Ray”, post:156, topic:514187”] When come back, bring reading comprehension. [/QUOTE] Dang, I thought you were leaving. Look, you can throw all the A pillar cites at me as you want. The fact of the matter is that we’re talking about a maneuver that is EXACTLY THE SAME AS A REGULAR LEFT HAND TURN. Exactly the same. No different at all. You’re driving down the road, see your left turn coming up, check your rear view mirror and see it’s Joe’s big red Dodge pickup, remind yourself you need to call Joe’s wife to see what you should bring to the party on Saturday, take off the cruise control, check for oncoming traffic, check for any cars coming from the left, and make your turn. See? Exactly the same. Except for a 12-foot\* jog to the left in the last couple of hundred feet as you brake. Which in and of itself would reveal that mythical same-speed-but-hidden-by-the-A-pillar car that you have somehow managed not to see for the last 30 seconds, but that’s probably because you’re fucking blind and shouldn’t be on the road in the first place. Or my now-deceased grandfather, either or. Anyhow. That’s why I couldn’t care less about your silly A-pillar cites. 12 feet? Is that how wide traffic lanes are? 16? ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2009, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/162 "2009-10-23T23:46:32Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > However, I agree that it is smarter to go with the flow if the the average speed is significantly higher than the posted limit. But raising speed limits, which is the goal of your link, has been demonstrated to raise morbidity and mortality. > > Which is a tangential issue anyway. Yes, I agree that the speed limit is tangental to the discussion of whether your illegal turn is a good practice. But you made the assertion that 55 saves lives, and it doesn’t. That would be another interesting thread. In your original post you seem to think that making this illegal turn is somehow a courtesy that you are providing the car following you. So maybe we could get back to that. ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/163 "2009-10-24T00:08:52Z")
It’s not completely different from getting the hell out of the way when you get to the top of an escalator. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/164 "2009-10-24T01:49:47Z")
> [@chique](#): > > Look, you can throw all the A pillar cites at me as you want. The fact of the matter is that we’re talking about a maneuver that is EXACTLY THE SAME AS A REGULAR LEFT HAND TURN. Exactly the same. No different at all. Thanks for engaging in a conversation. It’s not exactly the same because you’re putting yourself on the wrong side of the road which puts you in the path of the obscured car who has not seen you because he’s not expecting you to be there and hasn’t looked in your direction. Once you see him after moving over to the left lane, it may be that he’s already turning and accelerating toward you, and then what are you going to do? Veer back on to your side of the road into that car that was following you? But as I said earlier, there is an alternative method that is just as courteous but doesn’t involve crossing the centreline. So when given two equivalent options, why would anyone choose the one that carries higher risk, regardless of how slight? ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/165 "2009-10-24T01:53:42Z")
Do you drive? [edited to add]: Have you ever driven outside of an urban/suburban setting? ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/166 "2009-10-24T02:34:57Z")
I promise you, that is not a snarky question. See, I’m about to [take a left onto Division](http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=56303&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=32.472848,56.513672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=St.+Cloud,+Stearns,+Minnesota+56303&ll=45.553374,-94.190512&spn=0.003313,0.010986&z=17&layer=c&cbll=45.553264,-94.190515&panoid=epxWtSkRdlY38VQkQDABKw&cbp=12,179.88,,0,5). On the other hand, I could stop in the middle of the road and ask Cone Guy [what he’s doing](http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=56303&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=32.472848,56.513672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=St.+Cloud,+Stearns,+Minnesota+56303&ll=45.662377,-93.946066&spn=0.006613,0.021973&z=16&layer=c&cbll=45.66238,-93.945872&panoid=84_C95Khb_t3oGgbYYJBog&cbp=12,295,,0,5). Or I could drive backwards at 50 mph [using only my mirrors](http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=56303&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=32.472848,56.513672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=St.+Cloud,+Stearns,+Minnesota+56303&ll=45.763451,-94.024773&spn=0.105624,0.351562&z=12&layer=c&cbll=45.779787,-94.012855&panoid=LjVpzPlSJX-JDyjS5omf1A&cbp=12,91.69,,0,5). Or I could pull a U-turn in order to [park between the white minivan and the white Caddy-looking car](http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=56303&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=32.472848,56.513672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=St.+Cloud,+Stearns,+Minnesota+56303&ll=45.663674,-93.910629&spn=0.003307,0.010986&t=h&z=17&layer=c&cbll=45.66376,-93.91069&panoid=5cm6flfJEbgyeyMqvIA5TQ&cbp=12,148.92,,0,5). Or I could drive for 300 feet in the left hand (oncoming) [lane of traffic](http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&layer=c&cbll=45.713067,-94.027541&panoid=shmHf2KjE5a9EyvDyNr9jQ&cbp=12,216.17,,0,5&ll=45.713072,-94.027777&spn=0,359.912109&z=14). Out of those five extremely common scenarios\* only the first is completely legal, yet it also happens to be the maneuver that has the most potential for disaster, death, mayhem, and inconvenience. And yet you presume to tell me the last scenario is MORE dangerous than the first? For real? Ok, driving backwards at 50mph using only my mirrors might be _slightly_ hyperbolic, but it’s significantly safer than taking that route during a January snowstorm. At night. On a rural road with no shoulders. _shudder_ ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/167 "2009-10-24T02:46:14Z")
> [@chique](#): > > See, I’m about to [take a left onto Division](http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=56303&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=32.472848,56.513672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=St.+Cloud,+Stearns,+Minnesota+56303&ll=45.553374,-94.190512&spn=0.003313,0.010986&z=17&layer=c&cbll=45.553264,-94.190515&panoid=epxWtSkRdlY38VQkQDABKw&cbp=12,179.88,,0,5). Mea culpa - Division Street is labeled “Minnesota 23” at that link. Sorry for any confusion. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/168 "2009-10-24T03:17:26Z")
> [@chique](#): > > Out of those five extremely common scenarios\* only the first is completely legal, yet it also happens to be the maneuver that has the most potential for disaster, death, mayhem, and inconvenience. And yet you presume to tell me the last scenario is MORE dangerous than the first? For real? Where have I ever said that your last scenario is more dangerous than the first scenario? Take a given intersection, you have the option of turning left by crossing the centreline for a hundred meters (or however far you need) so the guy behind you doesn’t have to slow down. Or you can pull off to the right, wait for the following car to pass and then make your turn. The first scenario is illegal in some places, may possibly confuse the following driver, and puts you in no mans land for the time the following driving is passing you. The second is just as courteous to the following driver but puts you in a safer position to make the turn. Why would you take the more risky option? What is the benefit? BTW, what’s behind those trees in your fifth scenario? Did you know what was behind them when crossed the centreline for your farmers turn? And yes I drive, presently I mainly drive in a city, up to six months ago I drove in areas that are probably more remote than you can imagine, I even gave you a street view link before. ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/169 "2009-10-24T03:28:45Z")
[quote=“1920s Style “Death Ray”, post:168, topic:514187”] Take a given intersection, you have the option of turning left by crossing the centreline for a hundred meters (or however far you need) so the guy behind you doesn’t have to slow down. Or you can pull off to the right, wait for the following car to pass and then make your turn. … Why would you take the more risky option? What is the benefit? [/QUOTE] Erm. The second option you’ve given - around here, at least - means “ditch” and isn’t viable. No shoulder, steep sides, generally un-recoverable-from. In winter, that’s where plows put snow. Even if you pull off as far as you can so your vehicle is at a 20 degree slope you’re still taking up half a lane. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/170 "2009-10-24T03:29:37Z")
Farmer’s turns are done all the time here. The are simple and easy and effective. They aren’t doing something “unexpected,” because we see them all the time. ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/171 "2009-10-24T03:34:10Z")
Just went back to check my links and I can see why you’d not catch that detail. That grass on the nether sides of the white lines is waist high - clay soil, so the roads are built up from the surrounding area to avoid flooding/swamping. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/172 "2009-10-24T03:35:55Z")
> [@chique](#): > > Erm. The second option you’ve given - around here, at least - means “ditch” and isn’t viable. No shoulder, steep sides, generally un-recoverable-from. In winter, that’s where plows put snow. Even if you pull off as far as you can so your vehicle is at a 20 degree slope you’re still taking up half a lane. Your cone dude is comfortably parked on a shoulder. So there are obviously shoulders on some of the roads. Are you saying that you’d take my second option if there was enough shoulder to be able to do it? And that road you’ve given as an example of where you’d do a farmers turn kind of negates all this talk about being able to see if there are any cars on the cross road. There’s a line of trees obscuring much of the approach to the intersection. ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/173 "2009-10-24T03:38:21Z")
[quote=“1920s Style “Death Ray”, post:172, topic:514187”] Your cone dude is comfortably parked on a shoulder. So there are obviously shoulders on some of the roads. Are you saying that you’d take my second option if there was enough shoulder to be able to do it? [/QUOTE] If anyone in our part of the world knew what a traffic circle and/or Jersey turn was it’d be standard, I’m sure. But they’re not, hence the ‘famers turn’. ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/174 "2009-10-24T03:43:20Z")
Oh, and: Assuming that a four-lane no-stoplight/overpass-only divided highway is a primary road; Minnesota 23 in link 1 is a tertiary road; cone dude is on a fifth-iary road; driving backwards using my mirrors is a 7th-iary road. And then there’s several roads between that and gravel. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/175 "2009-10-24T04:07:33Z")
> [@chique](#): > > If anyone in our part of the world knew what a traffic circle and/or Jersey turn was it’d be standard, I’m sure. But they’re not, hence the ‘famers turn’. Right. I’ll grant that on a road with no shoulder at all a farmers turn might be preferable to having someone riding your arse while you slow down. [This is where I am](http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=broome+australia&sll=45.662377,-93.945873&sspn=0.234663,0.510864&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Broome+WA,+Australia&ll=-18.474399,123.261108&spn=2.547579,4.086914&t=h&z=8) by the way. I don’t drive here, but I work here and used to drive here. Now days my driving is done in a real city some 1500 miles away. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/176 "2009-10-24T04:16:51Z")
[Plenty of shoulder but not much visibility.](http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=broome+australia&sll=45.662377,-93.945873&sspn=0.234663,0.510864&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Broome+WA,+Australia&ll=-17.873292,122.357634&spn=0.071886,0.255432&t=h&z=12&layer=c&cbll=-17.873292,122.357634&panoid=RH4oDM3VDcjBZKFg3dmvHA&cbp=11,64.36,,0,-2.02) ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/177 "2009-10-24T04:25:28Z")
Mmm, and I’ve just remembered that Cone Guy’s shoulders have only been around ~10 years - when I was growing up and learning to drive that road looked like my third link, and the road in my third link was…significantly worse. I can recall more than one coversation that concluded with “The guy who runs the county roads should be required to live five miles out of town”. At least the 7th-iary roads have the white shoulder lines regularly re-painted these days. And, again - it really has nothing to do with someone “riding your arse”. It’s simply a matter of being nice to someone who has been and/or will be nice to you. ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/178 "2009-10-24T04:26:58Z")
[quote=“1920s Style “Death Ray”, post:176, topic:514187”] [Plenty of shoulder but not much visibility.](http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=broome+australia&sll=45.662377,-93.945873&sspn=0.234663,0.510864&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Broome+WA,+Australia&ll=-17.873292,122.357634&spn=0.071886,0.255432&t=h&z=12&layer=c&cbll=-17.873292,122.357634&panoid=RH4oDM3VDcjBZKFg3dmvHA&cbp=11,64.36,,0,-2.02) [/QUOTE] _shrug_ No one would do a farmers turn there. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/179 "2009-10-24T04:40:14Z")
> [@chique](#): > > _shrug_ No one would do a farmers turn there. I wasn’t suggesting they would, just thought it was an interesting contrast to your links. I didn’t mean riding your arse by way of tailgating, I just meant holding someone up, ie, they end up stuck behind you as you almost come to a standstill. ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2009, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187/180 "2009-10-24T04:55:08Z")
Right. Assuming no traffic and a crop shorter than corn in August, people blow by [this stop sign](http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=56329&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=32.472848,56.513672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Oak+Park,+Benton,+Minnesota+56329&ll=45.691342,-93.999882&spn=0.006265,0.043945&z=15&layer=c&cbll=45.691344,-93.999434&panoid=GbR3AqoYhP1cOBikc0UQfg&cbp=12,265.97,,0,5) all the time heading west…but no one would ever do it [while heading east](http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=56329&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=32.472848,56.513672&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Oak+Park,+Benton,+Minnesota+56329&ll=45.691342,-93.999882&spn=0.006265,0.043945&z=15&layer=c&cbll=45.691304,-94.002458&panoid=Ve8hyECPKip-DseZEWKsYg&cbp=12,99.22,,0,5), nor would anyone attempt a farmers turn. Because both would be stupid. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-courtesy-maneuver-naughty-but-nice/514187.md?page=10)