# Road trips w/ electric vehicles **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 3, 2021, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148 "2021-02-03T17:03:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Ficer67](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c57346/32.png) [@Ficer67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ficer67)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2021, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/201 "2021-02-13T21:08:03Z")
I feel that the short range of an electric vehicle is a business opportunity for AMTRAK. They could offer a service for people all over to transport their electric cars with them. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2021, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/202 "2021-02-14T04:09:08Z")
The inconvenience of that sucketh greatly. Quicker and smarter to fly and rent a car at the destination than try to ship your own car on an AMTRAK train with you riding the same train to your destination. (At least pre-COVID) the air travel industry and the rental car industry are dense and ubiquitous. As much as I like the idea of trains and have enjoyed some 1/2 day trips on AMTRAK, they are no-hopers for reaching critical mass absent capital T _Trillions_ of public money to jumpstart their ubiquity. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2021, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/203 "2021-02-14T13:54:04Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Not sure how you think the swap means any more tractors? The part that means more tractors is that you’re taking them out of service for however many hours to recharge, rather than for the minutes needed for a petrofuel vehicle. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2021, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/204 "2021-02-14T14:15:28Z")
Is it your understanding that current tractors are in service other than the minutes of the day required to refuel?? They aren’t. Tractor pretty much only out of service during the recharge periods \<\< current downtime for tractors. ---
**Author:** ![LivingGhost371](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b9e5f3/32.png) [@LivingGhost371](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LivingGhost371)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2021, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/205 "2021-02-14T14:41:16Z")
Trips of about 500 miles are where an auto train might make sense. The inconvenience of going through the airport and the Richard Reid Memorial Shoe Removal Queue sucketh. Renting a car at your destination sucketh. But spending an entire day driving sucketh too. And this thread is about how driving would sucketh even more if they don’t get fast charging figured out and implemented. Trains wouldn’t have to be that much faster. For a hypothetical weekend trip I could drive my car on the auto-train in Minneapolis Friday night, go to bed in my roomette, and wake up with my own car already loaded with my own luggage in Chicago. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2021, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/206 "2021-02-14T15:43:03Z")
Tractor downtime currently is pretty much load/unload time and mandated driver downtime, plus refueling. The load/unload time and mandated driver downtime aren’t going to change (barring autonomous driving of course). Adding significant charging time is going to decrease tractor uptime unless you can make charging time coincide perfectly with existing downtime factors. This seems unlikely to me, which is why I suggested swappable batteries for highway tractors may make sense where they don’t appear to make sense for passenger vehicles. The tight size/shape constraints for battery packs in passenger vehicles need not be factors at all for trucks. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2021, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/207 "2021-02-14T16:16:51Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > The load/unload time and mandated driver downtime aren’t going to change What you are missing is that the driver (and their mandated downtime) is “married to” _the load_, not the tractor: mandated _driver_ downtime ≠ _tractor_ downtime. Each tractor can be in service 24 hours per day minus (recharge plus any extra time waiting for the next load to come in to the stop to get hitched up to plus load/unload time) … which is much more than current usage patterns. You are considering driver/tractor/load as a single inseparable unit with driver as the rate limiting step. The goal however is to keep the load in movement as efficiently as possible. Barring autonomous vehicles (or platooning) the driver portion is a fixed number of driver-hours/day. But the tractors can flip to another driver and have no mandated downtime. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2021, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/208 "2021-02-14T16:22:52Z")
Well sure, but then you have to transport the replacement drivers to where they’re needed, which is not how the system currently works and electrification would not change that. And even if it did, then it’s still the case that charging time would increase tractor downtime, as driver-swap diesel tractors could run an even higher percentage of the time. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2021, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/209 "2021-02-14T17:25:54Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Well sure, but then you have to transport the replacement drivers to where they’re needed, Huh? No. Drivers are not being replaced. The tractor is. Then after it charges it gets back on the road with the next load and driver that pulls in. The rate limiting step for getting the load to its destination is the same: allowable driver-hours/day. An automated tractor swap would occur as fast as or faster than a fuel-up. Problem is I think we are anchored to the image of the tractor owner-operator as almost cowboy archetype, married to his tractor even more than a cowboy was married to his horse. Those days are mostly gone and the model fails to maximize the return of the investments and costs. Assuming no automation or platooning then the labor cost is the allowable driver hours/day. Other costs are fuel, maintenance, and the cost of the tractors. I think the hang up is that the current model has drivers sleeping in their tractors. But that really is not efficient. Sleeping quarters at rest stops more comfortable than the sleeper in a tractor can be created and run for relatively very little, while the tractor keeps moving with another driver and a different load. The tractor saves the weight of the sleeper, saving fuel/energy costs and allowing it to more maximize its allowable load. And it is more fully utilized. Of course yes a transition to automation will likely occur even before full electrification does, beginning with platooning, then more fully autonomous for at least open highway portions, the least challenging case for autonomous driving. Could any of the above happen with diesels too? Of course. But in the model tractor use time is most likely limited not by the refuel/recharge time (rapid charge expected to be 30 minutes but call it an hour each stop) but by having the logistics of the next driver/load is pulling up. Theoretically, logistics timed just right, diesel tractors _could_ gain maybe an hour or so of use time per day. The question then is if that additional hour or so is or is not offset by the decreased fuel costs of electricity, decreased maintenance costs, and likely longer mileage lifespan under those near constant use conditions, of electric tractors. Diesel tractors used nearly 24/7 would likely not last the million miles that electric tractors are predicted to last. And what they’d gain in the hour or so a day in use per day they might also lose in time being rotated off for brake replacements, oil changes, and other maintenance requirements. Which would actually get closer to 24/7/365? I’d WAG the electric tractor, and for more 365s. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2021, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/210 "2021-02-14T19:19:00Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I think the hang up is that the current model has drivers sleeping in their tractors. But that really is not efficient. Sleeping quarters at rest stops more comfortable than the sleeper in a tractor can be created and run for relatively very little Let’s see your math or cite for this, please. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2021, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/211 "2021-02-14T20:03:54Z")
Math is very simple. Weight Max allowed to carry = Weight Load plus Weight tractor Weight Tractor with sleeper \> Weight tractor without sleeper. Therefore weight of load allowable without sleeper \> weight of load with sleeper. Math that a dorm style actual bed is likely more comfortable than sleeping in the tractor? Real bed inside a temperature controlled building comfort \> sleeper inside truck outside comfort. That need not be commercial hotel rooms with separate showers. It would be more like MD call rooms for residents in hospitals, or dorm rooms in colleges, as part of the truck rest stop - a clean bed with shared shower bathroom facilities. Cost of sleeping in truck is non-zero. Often some energy is pulled running heat or AC. Even now apparently some fleets spring [for actual hotel rooms](https://www.ttnews.com/articles/some-fleets-embrace-paid-lodging-drivers-alternative-sleeper-cabs) as a cost effective choice perk. > [@](#): > > Steve Rush, owner of the Wharton, N.J.-based carrier, said he converted all of his company-owned tractors to daycabs in 2010 and made the switch to hotel lodging, calling it one of the best decisions he has made. > > “The benefits speak for themselves: **better sleep** , no parking problems and drivers are treated as all other mainstream people at work are, rather than being pushed aside,” he said. … > > … “Sleeping in the back of the truck is like you working at your desk all day long then pulling out a portable bed and going to sleep,” he said. > > Moreover, Rush said his 75-truck fleet has seen an **increase in productivity,** in large part because his **daycabs can haul 11-21% more product than his competitors due to the weight savings compared with a sleeper tractor.** > > “The **improvement in efficiency** is there and always has been, but it has been ignored by this industry in favor of keeping the driver in the sleeper,” Rush said. > > That increase in productivity, along with lower equipment costs, helps Rush offset the added expense of the hotel bill, which averages in the mid-$30,000 to high-$40,000 range each month. While a majority of Carbon Express’ drivers run routes that enable them to return home each night, more than a quarter of its drivers do require lodging, Rush said, adding that he pays, on average, $25,000 less per truck for daycabs. > > “You get more for what you do,” he said. “You don’t have the turnover. You don’t have all of the accessorial equipment. You have a rested driver.” Bolding mine. Embracing that as the norm, with cheaper purpose built dorm style facilities, would run the math even better. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2021, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/212 "2021-02-14T20:19:51Z")
Add in from another of the fleets discussed: > [@](#): > > … the move toward paid lodging was based on an analysis of engine idling. She said the carrier had offered drivers incentives for reducing idle time, but realized that the drivers had to idle to be comfortable in the cab. Now the company has seen close to a 40% reduction in idle hours, she said. > > “When the guys are in those trucks and idling full time, it uses nearly as much fuel as it does to put them in a motel costwise,” Delp said, adding that reducing idle time also helps with warranties. “The idle hours have a direct correlation to the warranty. A lot of people miss that.” > > Nationwide Auto Transport has found that hotel use has led to a decrease in equipment damage. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2021, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/213 "2021-02-14T21:22:04Z")
One advantage of an electric vehicle, particularly one that’s plugged in to recharge, is that you don’t need to consume gas/diesel to make the cabin comfortable. Of course, it should be possible to design a diesel tractor so the HVAC system for the sleeping compartment doesn’t require the engine to be idling the whole time. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2021, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/214 "2021-02-14T23:07:55Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Huh? > > No. Drivers are not being replaced. The tractor is. Then after it charges it gets back on the road with the next load and driver that pulls in. Okay, that’s even worse. Now you have tractors deadheading around to their next load. Or you’re assuming that somehow every transfer can be made in centralized locations with exactly balanced traffic so that you never end up with more tractors than you need in Pennsylvania and fewer than you need in Wisconsin. Which isn’t going to happen, or trucking companies would already be doing this. Actually I’m sure big trucking companies already are doing this to the extent feasible, which isn’t likely very much. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2021, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/215 "2021-02-15T00:42:42Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > with exactly balanced traffic so that you never end up with more tractors than you need in Pennsylvania and fewer than you need in Wisconsin. Yes by definition we have balanced traffic now and would or else we’d be ending with with tractors piling up now. Tractors make round trips. One tractor with load comes into a stop. One tractor with load leaves the stop. The load would just leave not attached to the same tractor it came in with. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2021, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/216 "2021-02-15T00:55:04Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > One advantage of an electric vehicle, particularly one that’s plugged in to recharge, is that you don’t need to consume gas/diesel to make the cabin comfortable. Which might make it generally more comfortable as well. No noise, vibration, or fumes. More power available for creature comforts. Less need to park in an extreme out of the way place to avoid disturbing others. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2021, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/217 "2021-02-15T01:02:10Z")
If a tractor has 500 mile range, that is about what a human driver should do at a stretch. Swapping loads to a fresh driver/rig is what should happen at that point. The spent rig/shifted-out driver should then take fifteen+ hours to recharge. Drivers going more than 500 miles (either at 55 or at 80) are a danger to our roadways. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2021, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/218 "2021-02-15T12:35:39Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Embracing that as the norm, with cheaper purpose built dorm style facilities, would run the math even better. Which we still haven’t seen: “very little” for creating and running lodging. Something that _could_ be done now, if there were money to be made and demand for it beyond a handful of companies making claims that don’t match your earlier cite that eliminating the berth from the Tesla will save only 700-1000 lb over a short sleeper. That’s not 11-20% more product. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2021, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/219 "2021-02-15T16:02:40Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > your earlier cite that eliminating the berth from the Tesla will save only 700-1000 lb over a short sleeper. That’s not 11-20% more product The cite/post that you refer to was NOT comparing sleeper to day cab configurations of the same truck: [it](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/148) was taking a lightweighted tractor, pulling out the parts that made it diesel and putting in the parts that are needed to be electric, battery inclusive, to compared weights of systems. And indeed with a 500 mile range battery the diesel wins by about 1000 lb (and with a 300 mile range battery the electric would win by 3000 lb.) Apple to apple as best as possible. [Other](https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?2,4180775%7D) sources also state that the weight difference between day cabs and sleepers is about 4000 lb. Using that and a standard 45,000 lb payload, and weight tare as the only criteria then I calculate more like 9% … but yeah, I trust someone running the fleet more than my back of the envelope calculations. Right now the “relatively very little” is called hotels … _hotels_, each room with private baths and mostly big enough for double occupancy, are apparently cost effective. Maybe truckers don’t need anything cheaper, but obviously a dorm style set up, without the free breakfast and fitness center, could be done for less. If you think it would cost more I’d like to see your math! This has gone far off road from the OP by now … ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2021, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/220 "2021-02-15T16:12:16Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Right now the “relatively very little” is called hotels … _hotels_ , each room with private baths and mostly big enough for double occupancy, are apparently cost effective. > > Maybe truckers don’t need anything cheaper, but obviously a dorm style set up, without the free breakfast and fitness center, could be done for less. If you think it would cost more I’d like to see your math! I agree that making the rooms smaller and cutting down on other amenities would be price effective. Plus there’s the efficiency in not having to find and navigate to the hotel. Maybe best of both worlds would be to make the on-site motels small enough that during peak capacity you can stay in a hotel anyway because otherwise a lot of the rooms would be perpetually empty. But I’d think that _paid_ breakfast _and dinner_ might be useful to have to increase that efficiency so the trucker wouldn’t have to then go out - on foot or uber! - to then find a meal. Perhaps an assortment of frozen dinners and breakfast items for very little markup could be had in case the driver doesn’t feel like springing for online delivery. That, or you’d need to make sure your recharging stations were in walking distance of food. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148.md?page=12)