# Road trips w/ electric vehicles
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [February 3, 2021, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148 "2021-02-03T17:03:47Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 5
### Author:  [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)
#### Post date: [February 4, 2021, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/81 "2021-02-04T20:52:35Z")
And even if you’re driving there would be an app that could route you to the nearest place with an open charging port (or even to _reserve_ a spot for the time you’re expected to arrive).
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### Author:  [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)
#### Post date: [February 4, 2021, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/82 "2021-02-04T22:08:33Z")
Tesla’s in car navigation and app show the number of available chargers at each location, so you can make decisions about where to stop. I mention Tesla as the example, because right now they’re ahead of everybody else, but the other companies and charge networks will catch up.
The chargepoint app shows which chargers in their network are available, and has an interface to get in line. At the moment, it is not a very good interface, and requires either a stop or a passenger to find an available charger. That is a solvable problem, particular if an EV maker were to incorporate the information into their navigation display.
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### Author:  [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)
#### Post date: [February 4, 2021, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/83 "2021-02-04T22:39:28Z")
Should have suspected that someone already had that.
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### Author:  [@Brayne\_Ded](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brayne_Ded)
#### Post date: [February 4, 2021, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/84 "2021-02-04T23:18:27Z")
> [@YamatoTwinkie](#):
>
> Its the opposite. It charges faster the closer the battery is to “empty”.
Are you sure? I saw a “charge when more than half full” recommendation for Smartphones not long ago, and EVs also use lithium-ion batteries.
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### Author:  [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)
#### Post date: [February 4, 2021, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/85 "2021-02-04T23:22:14Z")
> [@Brayne\_Ded](#):
>
> Are you sure?
It’s correct. Here’s a charge curve for a Model 3 on the fast 250 kW chargers:
[https://cleantechnica.com/files/2019/06/Tesla-Model-3-LR-on-Supercharger-V3-June-2019-Data.png](https://cleantechnica.com/files/2019/06/Tesla-Model-3-LR-on-Supercharger-V3-June-2019-Data.png)
Note that it only hits the peak 250 kW for a short period between 5% and 20% state-of-charge, and then drops off semi-linearly from there.
Below 5% it slows down, but you probably should avoid letting it get that low (though the battery control system will prevent significant damage from happening).
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### Author:  [@steronz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steronz)
#### Post date: [February 4, 2021, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/86 "2021-02-04T23:25:02Z")
But both are right. Charging from half full is better for battery life, hence that recommendation. But charging from empty is faster, if not a little bit harder on the batteries.
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### Author:  [@LivingGhost371](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LivingGhost371)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2021, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/87 "2021-02-05T00:52:10Z")
Agree that it would be nice to have instant heat. I’m not sure why supplemental electric heaters for gasoline cars never became common.
Considering how seldom cars actually catch fire (and isn’t a malfunctioning battery able to catch fire too?) I’m not sure what the deal is carrying flammable liquid around, and I’m not sitting in back inhaling from the exhaust pipe.
The lack of acceleration is because of stupid government mandates that essentially require undersized four cylinder engines be put into cars to increase fuel economy. My Rav4 has the V6 and if I step on the gas too hard it takes off like a rocket.
My momentum not being harnessed when I decelerating seems like an issue for physics nerds, not ordinary people.
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2021, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/88 "2021-02-05T00:55:22Z")
> [@LivingGhost371](#):
>
> Agree that it would be nice to have instant heat. I’m not sure why supplemental electric heaters for gasoline cars never became common.
It would also be nice in the summer to run the air conditioning for a few minutes before I get in the car. Or run the defroster on the windshield in the winter (although I saw that in a commercial as a feature of an IC car.)
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### Author:  [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2021, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/89 "2021-02-05T01:20:40Z")
> [@LivingGhost371](#):
>
> My Rav4 has the V6 and if I step on the gas too hard it takes off like a rocket.
Tesla Model 3 goes from [0-60 mph in 3.1 seconds](https://www.tesla.com/model3) (not that I advise anyone to do this outside a racetrack). Can your Rav4 do that?
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### Author:  [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2021, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/90 "2021-02-05T01:25:50Z")
> [@DSeid](#):
>
> I’m honestly not sure how big of a problem it is.
>
> What are the actual numbers of vehicles on the road during those times driving over 400 to 500 miles in one day? (Given that we currently have vehicles that travel over 300 on one charge, 400 to 500 by another ten years or so seems _very_ conservative.)
>
> It is not zero to be sure. Some do cross country road trips traveling 600 plus in a day. But I’d wager most fly cross country and that most holiday travel is within 300 to 400 miles of home, doable on one charge by then, and I’d guess that a fairly small minority of those who are distance driving those holiday times travel much over 400 miles in a day.
>
> I’m not convinced there is a major problem here.
The metric isn’t how many people will be traveling 4-500 miles, the metric is how many more people will be traveling 4-500 miles due to the holidays _than would otherwise be traveling that distance_. To me, that would seem to just exacerbate the problem because other than truckers, holidays are the major time when most people _do_ that mileage in road trips.
If there is no reason to build a lot of charging stations close to the highway because everyone takes 300 mile journeys, then no one is going to be building them. The increase in long distance travelers will still overwhelm the system of superchargers.
Which isn’t to say they won’t be able to charge at all. Eventually there will be a lot of non-superchargers at regular businesses to attract the customers, but they won’t be investing the $100K or more for a supercharger unless they think they’ll be able to consistently sell the electricity to someone.
It may come down to not being able to take long road trips during the holidays, or limiting it to 300 miles a day.
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### Author:  [@swampspruce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampspruce)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2021, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/91 "2021-02-05T01:50:34Z")
I’m not sure if there’s one close to you but you owe it to yourself to test drive an EV, ideally a Mach E or a Tesla Model Y as it is closer to the vehicles you mentioned on your other thread.
While it may be true you’re not sniffing your own exhaust you sure sucking up other people’s in stop and go traffic… 😁
Your assertion of government mandates is pretty much untrue as well. CAFE standards say x is what the mfrs have to achieve, how they do it is up to them More to the point, it’s totally irrelevant to this discussion as a Model 3 Performance can match a Dodge Demon in the 1/8 mi and that is no 4 pot econobox… [Tesla Model 3 Performance outruns Dodge Challenger SRT Demon in drag race](https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-3-performance-vs-dodge-challenger-srt-demon-drag-race/)
The fact you’re putting range back into the tank is hugely important and not just for physics nerds…
It’s why EVs get better range in stop and go traffic versus highway.
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### Author:  [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2021, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/92 "2021-02-05T01:55:06Z")
> [@swampspruce](#):
>
> The fact you’re putting range back into the tank is hugely important and not just for physics nerds
And aside from the efficiency aspects, it also enables one-foot driving and “engine braking” for long downhills. No need to worry about brake overheating when the gravitational potential energy is being efficiently converted to battery charge instead of heating up your brake rotors.
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2021, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/93 "2021-02-05T03:23:34Z")
> [@Ludovic](#):
>
> The metric isn’t how many people will be traveling 4-500 miles, the metric is how many more people will be traveling 4-500 miles due to the holidays _than would otherwise be traveling that distance_ . To me, that would seem to just exacerbate the problem because other than truckers, holidays are the major time when most people _do_ that mileage in road trips.
Yes, that is the question. And other basing it on a WAG do you have any actual numbers to share? And given that in this imagined future trucking is likely going to electric as well, I would exclude not trucking traffic. But let’s, as doing that gets complicated (infrastructure demands would be shared but the actual charging stations would be different).
I could find [this](https://www.bts.gov/archive/publications/america_on_the_go/us_holiday_travel/entire) based on 2017.
> [@](#):
>
> During the 6-day Thanksgiving travel period, the number of long-distance trips (to and from a destination 50 miles or more away) increases by 54 percent, and during the Christmas/New Year’s Holiday period the number rises by 23 percent, compared to the average number for the remainder of the year. …
> … Most long-distance holiday travel, about 91 percent, is by personal vehicle, such as by car. The percentage of long-distance travelers who travel by personal vehicle during the holidays is not statistically different from the 89 percent who make long-distance trips by personal vehicle during the rest of the year …
> … at least 100 miles away (56 percent of personal vehicle trips) …
> … The average Thanksgiving long-distance trip length is 214 miles, compared with 275 miles over the Christmas/New Year’s holiday. For the remainder of the year, average trip distance is 261 miles. …
It does not answer the question directly but it does allow for a reasonable guess of 54% more as an upper bound of how much capacity would need to be overbuilt to handle peak travel season loads. And that the average holiday road tripper would have no problem, no need to charge up along the way. In fact a fairly small fraction of road trippers would need to charge on the road at all, assuming battery capacity increases even marginally to 400 to 500 per charge over another decade.
> [@Ludovic](#):
>
> Eventually there will be a lot of non-superchargers at regular businesses to attract the customers, but they won’t be investing the $100K or more for a supercharger unless they think they’ll be able to consistently sell the electricity to someone
Maybe yes maybe no. It attracts the business and would for years to come. $100K as a one time investment is not all that much if it increases business every day and more over holidays for years to come, depending on the business center you are.
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### Author:  [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2021, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/94 "2021-02-05T03:34:52Z")
> [@DSeid](#):
>
> The average Thanksgiving long-distance trip length is 214 miles, compared with 275 miles over the Christmas/New Year’s holiday. For the remainder of the year, average trip distance is 261 miles
That’s interesting. All of those distances are within the single charge range for many Teslas. The longer ones might need a few minutes at a charger if range is down because the heater has been running. That suggest that for nearly half of the cars on long distance trips, no route charging is necessary at all.
Destination charging will be slow and distributed. “Hey Grandma, can I unplug your dryer?” More likely, you’ll just plug into Grandma’s 220v outlet she uses to charge her car, or use the hotel charger that you reserved along with your room.
> [@LivingGhost371](#):
>
> Considering how seldom cars actually catch fire (and isn’t a malfunctioning battery able to catch fire too?) I
The original comment about a “tank full of flammable liquid” is a joke about the occasional news stories of an EV catching fire. These hyped stories led to the belief that EVs incredibly dangerous lithium battery bombs, even though EV fires happen at a lower rate than gas car fires.
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### Author:  [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2021, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/95 "2021-02-05T04:42:29Z")
> [@kayaker](#):
>
> I found the discussion, it was specifically about the future of [graphene supercapacitors](https://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/graphene-supercapacitors/), which could be built into a car’s structure. Over my head, but interesting.
They are also working on batteries that can be part of the body/structure of the car. Eliminating the dead-weight of the battery pack could increase range considerably.
Supercaps are rather intriguing. The ones mentioned in that article have effectively about half the capacity of the best lithium batteries: it says that they can hold 73 Wh per Kg, compared to good batteries that can hold 265 Wh/Kg – but many/most EVs constrain the batteries to the 80%-20% range to improve battery life, limiting them to 60% of stated capacity.
Supercaps have a couple of huge advantages that makes them attractive option, if the energy-to-mass ratio can be improved. They can charge as fast as the juice can be fed into them, meaning what would be a 30 minute stop for a BEV could, if that much power can be delivered (no small matter), become more like the 5-10 minutes it takes to fill a gas tank. They can endure many more full charge/discharge cycles than batteries, losing much less capacity over time. And, most importantly, supercaps are somewhat/verymuch less sensitive to cold weather. Still, they would have to improve quite a bit without relying on rare earths or expensive manufacture to become truly competitive with batteries.
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2021, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/96 "2021-02-05T11:48:37Z")
Another major factor in favor of supercapacitors is that there’s a lot more room for improvement. The batteries of 50 or 100 years from now will undoubtedly be better than the ones now, but not by an order of magnitude. Fundamentally, you’re limited by the density of chemical energy, which just doesn’t vary by all that much. But capacitors, if they have any fundamental limit on their energy density at all, it’s much greater. And they’re advancing very rapidly. So most likely, the time will come when capacitors can not only match the energy density of batteries, but far exceed them.
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### Author:  [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2021, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/97 "2021-02-05T12:56:43Z")
Some clever company will work out how to improve performance by having a system with both chemical batteries and super-capacitors. For example, when the batteries are charging slowly, put more into the capacitors.
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### Author:  [@tofor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tofor)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2021, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/98 "2021-02-05T13:47:07Z")
Capacitors also have effectively no limit on how fast they can discharge. Which is a safety concern.
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### Author:  [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2021, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/99 "2021-02-05T14:00:58Z")
It’s the same sort of safety concern as a gas tank, which also has effectively no limit on how fast it can discharge its stored energy.
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### Author:  [@jjakucyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjakucyk)
#### Post date: [February 5, 2021, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/100 "2021-02-05T14:24:40Z")
For all the energy spent hemming and hawing over long driving trips we could rebuild the national network of intercity rail lines. They can even be powered with electricity, over wires! What a novel idea. The solutions (or rational responses, if you prefer) to reduced fossil fuel use are more nuanced than “how do we keep on happy motoring just the same as always.” The long road trip could become an anachronism, much like traveling by ocean liner or zeppelin, supplanted by something else better suited to available technology.
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