# Road trips w/ electric vehicles
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [February 3, 2021, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148 "2021-02-03T17:03:47Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 8
### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [February 6, 2021, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/141 "2021-02-06T19:48:19Z")
That’s probably the best path forward. Chickens and egg problems are better handled by starting with smaller birds that have smaller eggs.
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [February 6, 2021, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/142 "2021-02-06T20:05:02Z")
> [@jjakucyk](#):
>
> There’s a lot of logistical complications with its operation that make it limited and expensive. I don’t think there’s anything particularly special about the autoracks, which are used all the time for transporting new cars from factory to market, but it does require passenger stations with vehicle loading ramps and staging areas. That’s why the train runs nonstop from Washington DC to Orlando (nominally). Even if there was a station in between that had the right facilities, it would be no five minute stop.
When I was a kid in the 1970s or 1980s, Amtrak advertised the Autotrain quite a bit and I remember seeing an article that explained why it didn’t go further north than Washington, DC. Apparently the tunnels north of there don’t have enough headroom for the tall traincars needed to car passenger cars.
I always wanted to take the Autotrain, mostly so we could go to Disney World.
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [February 6, 2021, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/143 "2021-02-06T22:02:03Z")
One of their links explains why the 25% alone is simplistic. When matters. And which state.
> **[Switching to electric vehicles could save the US billions, but timing is...](https://theconversation.com/switching-to-electric-vehicles-could-save-the-us-billions-but-timing-is-everything-106227)**
>
> Ensuring that everyone doesn’t charge their cars simultaneously will make a big difference.
> [@](#):
>
> In 2018, the Electric Reliability Council of Texas, the organization that manages most of Texas’s electric grid, hit a new peak demand of roughly [73 gigawatts on July 19](http://www.ercot.com/content/wcm/lists/144927/Review_of_Summer_2018_ERCOT_Market_Performance_-_FINAL.pdf). Looking at the off-peak hours for July 19, 2018, we found the ERCOT grid had spare capacity to provide more than 350 gigawatt-hours of additional electricity if idled power plants continued to operate throughout the day, not just during peak demand.
>
> Based on our estimates, the charging requirements for a fully electrified fleet of personal cars in Texas would be about 290 gigawatt-hours per day, less than the available surplus of generation capacity. In other words, the Texas grid could theoretically charge a fully electrified vehicle fleet today if vehicles were charged during off-peak hours.
>
> When we did the same analysis for California, however, we found that if EVs become the norm, it could push the total demand for electricity beyond the existing capacity of the Golden State’s grid. …
>
> … Timing is everything
>
> Perhaps even more important than how much electricity EVs would consume is the question of when it would be consumed.
>
> We based the above estimates on optimal, off-peak charging patterns. If instead most EVs were to be charged in the afternoon, the electricity grid would need more generation capacity to avoid outages.
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### Author:  [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)
#### Post date: [February 7, 2021, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/144 "2021-02-07T00:41:03Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#):
>
> I’ve only skimmed the paper you linked to, but it appears to be using figures which were pessimistic even for 2017 (the publication date). Among many other things, their numbers are based on a minimum coefficient of drag of 0.45, stating “Class 8 vehicles currently have an average coefficient of drag (Cd) of 0.63,(8) with a projected value of 0.45(8) for future vehicles.” However, the 2017 Tesla Semi has a Cd of 0.38.
It doesn’t change the fact that however many tons of 4680s you need for a ~MWh is freight you can’t carry. Streamlining, lightweighting, platooning, automation, “new usage pattern models” all work just fine for ICEs too, with the exception of batteries-as-structural-components. Which supposedly ol’ Musky has people working on. So I hope he’ll prove me wrong.
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### Author:  [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)
#### Post date: [February 7, 2021, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/145 "2021-02-07T00:56:22Z")
> [@echoreply](#):
>
> Yep, that’s just what I said upthread:
It points out that access to even a suitable low-voltage circuit, while less prevalent in rented residences, isn’t a given for cars parked at owned residences.
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### Author:  [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)
#### Post date: [February 7, 2021, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/146 "2021-02-07T01:01:38Z")
> [@Ruken](#):
>
> It doesn’t change the fact that however many tons of 4680s you need for a ~MWh is freight you can’t carry.
And? You can say the same thing about any component. A pound of diesel is a pound you can’t carry as freight. Without realistic numbers, it’s a meaningless critique.
I remember seeing analyses in the early EV days comparing the energy density of a gallon of gas with the batteries of the day and concluding that EVs are impossible because a single gallon is equivalent to hundreds of pounds of batteries. You could fill your car with batteries and fit maybe 3 gallons worth, and who wants a 3 gallon gas tank and a trunk full of cells? It was a dumb analysis, even then. This one is marginally better but still makes pessimistic estimates on basically every front.
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### Author:  [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)
#### Post date: [February 7, 2021, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/147 "2021-02-07T01:17:20Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#):
>
> And? You can say the same thing about any component. A pound of diesel is a pound you can’t carry as freight. Without realistic numbers, it’s a meaningless critique.
Yes, you are correct that any added component that adds weight is a disadvantage. If you have better numbers than the article, let’s see yours. And at least with a pound of diesel, you _don’t put it in the tank_ if you aren’t going to need it.
Tesla hasn’t changed the chemistry at play one bit. But even then, 380 Wh/kg is truly amazing and the 4680 is going to have a big impact on light vehicles _and_ drayage, but it’s still weight and distance limited.
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [February 7, 2021, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/148 "2021-02-07T02:33:15Z")
Of course the lack of an ICE engine and fuel saves weight. And max weight of loaded truck is capped by law at 36 tons. So what you need to know is a comparison of the Semi unloaded and a fully gassed up regular unloaded truck. If the capacity is significantly less that factors into more loads having to be hauled by x% and offset other potential cost savings.
So [here’s](https://insideevs.com/news/336273/the-tesla-semi-weighs-in-part-3/) an analysis of that. Taking out and putting in.
> [@](#):
>
> Most of the current-generation aero line-haul diesel tractors weigh-in at 19,000 lb and carry 700-1,400 miles worth of fuel onboard. To be competitive, Tesla has to weigh-in at no more than 20,000 lb while carrying ([from George’s battery pack article](https://insideevs.com/tesla-semi-truck-battery-lighter/)) a 9,500 lb, 500-mile-range battery pack. …
>
> …Adding a new electric propulsion system to the stripped-down Class 8 “glider”, **we estimate the 500-mile range Tesla semi** comes in right around **20,000 lb** – the upper limit to guarantee capacity to haul a “regular” payload and trailer without exceeding the Federal 80,000 lb Class 8 weight limit. **The 300-mile range version** , with a smaller 510-kWh (estimated) battery pack, weighs in at a slim **16,000 pounds**. _Almost light enough for welterweight._
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### Author:  [@steepone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/steepone)
#### Post date: [February 7, 2021, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/149 "2021-02-07T06:09:57Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#):
>
> I’m not trying to get into an argument about gas v electric, just trying to envision the logistics. Will we just become accustomed to distance travel becoming a more “leisurely” process? Or is it expected that some battery breakthroughs will drastically increase range and reduce charging time?
If we are going to go fully to EVs then what will drive the development in recharge facilities won’t be people doing the occasional long trip, it will be commercial vehicles that have to drive long distances every day, if these commercial vehicles are to go electric then there will have to be some sort of recharge facilities that don’t add significantly to the duration of the trip
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### Author:  [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)
#### Post date: [February 7, 2021, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/150 "2021-02-07T12:55:47Z")
> [@DSeid](#):
>
> > the stripped-down Class 8 “glider”,
And therein lie the apples and oranges. Yes, a medium-range, sleeper-less, unit using SotA lightweighting technology weighs in at less than the average long-range unit carrying enough fuel for a far longer trip.
* * *
> [@steepone](#):
>
> If we are going to go fully to EVs then what will drive the development in recharge facilities won’t be people doing the occasional long trip, it will be commercial vehicles that have to drive long distances every day
Except the OP was asking about a light-duty vehicle manufacturer making the change in 2035. As we’ve seen in real time, smaller vehicles are easy to electrify. So even if we do eventually go all-electric, there will be a gap before the long-distance commercial vehicles catch up. Absent policy drivers or new technology.
Although I believe heavy vehicles have a shorter lifetime, which could narrow that gap as light ICEs will take longer to cycle out.
* * *
We’ve seen some data on spikes in holiday travel, but I wonder what the spike in near-interstate fuel purchases is. I expect it to be smaller due to vehicle efficiency.
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [February 7, 2021, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/151 "2021-02-07T14:03:19Z")
> [@Ruken](#):
>
> And therein lie the apples and oranges.
I don’t think you read the link.
The stripped down “glider” the quote refers to is a current same class 8 long haul aero line haul tractor stripped out of the Diesel engines, transmission, fuel, and so on. Then adding back in the electric components 500 mile range battery inclusive. Total about the same as state of the art aero class 8 tractors, which are lighter ( and thus capacity for bigger loads) than others on the road.
Apples to apples. Same loads possible.
Bring this back to the op. Yes trucking with EVs will be possible, and it will require infrastructure from extra generation distributed along the way, to the charging stations to all points between.
This will be the heavy backbone that the much smaller long distance drivers of lighter weight vehicles charging needs will be added on to, in that hypothetical future of all vehicle sold are electric, leading to a gradual replacement of the ICE vehicles in the national fleet
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### Author:  [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)
#### Post date: [February 7, 2021, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/152 "2021-02-07T14:09:10Z")
@LSLGuy, couldn’t you just set up a system where individual unit owners can pay to get a charging hookup for their individual assigned parking spots? Presumably, it’d be just a few of them at first, and your electrical infrastructure should be able to handle a few added loads. As the number gradually increases, then you could start looking into increasing the complex’s connection to the grid, and so on.
As far as peak times and so on go, one point that’s often overlooked is that car-charging nicely complements alternative energy like wind. The biggest problem with wind is that it isn’t blowing all the time. You can mitigate that significantly by averaging over a large area (though then you get transmission losses), but you can also mitigate it by averaging over time. Install smart meters that can change the rate in real time, and the power company charges a lower rate (constantly communicated to the meters) while the wind turbines are spinning than while they’re not. Then, the user with a car that takes 6 hours to charge, plugs in 12 hours before they need to leave in the morning. And the charger tracks the price, and charges only when the electricity is cheap, while still making sure to get the charging finished by the time you set for it to be ready. Presto, the cars run entirely on renewable energy, the windmills never go to waste, and the baseline generators keep at a nice, steady, predictable level.
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### Author:  [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)
#### Post date: [February 7, 2021, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/153 "2021-02-07T16:06:39Z")
> [@DSeid](#):
>
> I don’t think you read the link.
I read enough to know that their estimate weighs in at over 5000 lb more than the T680 (_with_ a 52" sleeper, fueled for the same range) they reference. And that’s even before correcting for the difference between actual T680 component weights and the “average” weights they’re using for their estimate.
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### Author:  [@LivingGhost371](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LivingGhost371)
#### Post date: [February 7, 2021, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/154 "2021-02-07T16:08:49Z")
Thinking aloud, I wonder it the auto train is also a chicken and egg situation. It’s so limited and inefficient because few people use it, and few people use it because it’s so limited and inefficient
I’d just love to take the autotrain from Minneapolis to Chicago, or from Minneapolis to Florida if only it were affordable and even possible, I’m assuming that it would be possible to have robots load the cars a lot faster than humans can if there were enough demand to invest in the intitial technology. Or build features into future self-driving cars that they can load themselves.
As far as costs, it’s a fair point to look at one night’s hotel, considering that if you want to arrive in Florida in the morning you’re spending the night in Georgia or someplace. At a Holiday Inn Express that’s $150 you don’t have to pay. That made us feel better about paying for the Yarmouth ferry back when they were doing overnight trips on a slow cruise type boat (now they’re doing fast day trips on a catamaran)
It’s not fair to factor in the cost of shipping a car since if you drove you wouldn’t have to ship a car, so you’re comparing the cost of driving, food, and one night hotel vs the train fare.
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### Author:  [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)
#### Post date: [February 7, 2021, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/155 "2021-02-07T16:23:39Z")
ISTM the advent of rental cars has destroyed the rationale for the autotrain. It was a 1950s-thinking invention first deployed way too late in the 1980s that’s grossly silly in the (pre-COVID) 2020s.
It’s now trivial to rent a car rather cheaply anywhere an autotrain might have enough customers to warrant a stop. The one thing modern vacationers don’t have is time to spare. Fly and rent a car will almost always be cheaper. And will add one or two days at the destination to whatever finite vacation time they have.
I could imagine a network of autotrains being useful to retirees and snowbirds taking more extended trips, where the incremental couple of days saved don’t matter. But these demographics are well-served today by rented or owned RVs, and/or flying coupled with the many services that will transport your car via truck door-to-door for remarkably little money. So while such a rail network would be _useful_, I predict it would not come anywhere near being economically _viable_.
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### Author:  [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)
#### Post date: [February 7, 2021, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/156 "2021-02-07T17:17:36Z")
Why the discussion about tractors? I have a 1959 Britannica atlas that show not roads but rails. We had a massive rail network – even in the west, there were few places more than 100 miles from a point of service. If we need to go all-electric, rail is the most obvious way to move freight efficiently. Long haul trucking is just too wasteful.
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### Author:  [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)
#### Post date: [February 7, 2021, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/157 "2021-02-07T19:41:47Z")
> [@eschereal](#):
>
> If we need to go all-electric, rail is the most obvious way to move freight efficiently. Long haul trucking is just too wasteful.
You can blame that on the Interstate Highway System. If it hadn’t been built, the trucking industry would likely be only a small fraction of what it is today. However, this is irrelevent to the question of electrification of vehicles. The trucking industry is big and electrification is not going to shrink it. Nor will arguments against it. So it has to be converted too.
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### Author:  [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)
#### Post date: [February 7, 2021, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/158 "2021-02-07T19:49:06Z")
There is a lot of interest in electric trucks for local deliveries, like for UPS or Fedex, or even to replace the [Grumman LLV trucks](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grumman_LLV#/media/File:Small_USPS_Truck.jpg) the USPS has been running for decades. These sort of vehicles typically run less than a hundred miles in a day, and return to a fixed depot each evening.
So even if long-haul trucking has issues that make an electric conversion difficult, there are plenty of other trucks that can be converted.
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### Author:  [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)
#### Post date: [February 7, 2021, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/159 "2021-02-07T22:07:29Z")
The Tesla Semi, technology that will likely be improved upon over the next decade or so, can handle today’s standard load for Class 8 trucks. Maybe the best lightweighted aero Class 8 trucks can carry a percent more as max load carried, but trucking has been working fine with the standard containers opf standard weight maximums. My understanding is that the biggest … driver … of lightweighting is fuel efficiency, not bigger load capacity. And a smaller fuel tank is part of the lightweighting process.
> [@eschereal](#):
>
> rail is the most obvious way to move freight efficiently
[Some interesting factoids](https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/freight_analysis/nat_freight_stats/docs/13factsfigures/pdfs/fff2013_highres.pdf). (pdf - from 2013 but most recent I found)
> [@](#):
>
> … Trucks carry the largest share of goods by weight for distances less than 750 miles and more
> than 2,000 miles. Rail is the dominant mode for goods moved over distances greater than
> 750 miles and less than 2,000 miles, accounting for 37 percent of total tons moved. …
>
> … The vast majority of freight tonnage (87 percent) is moved over distances less than 750
> miles. Freight transported more than 2,000 miles accounted for less than two percent of
> total tonnage. …
>
> … The modal distribution for ton-miles is similar to that for tons, with the exception of
> long-distance water moves. Rail moved nearly two-thirds of total ton-miles while pipelines
> accounted for 70 percent of ton-miles for distances more than 1,000 miles. …
>
> … By 2040, long-haul freight truck traffic in the United States is expected to increase
> dramatically on the NHS. Forecast data indicate that truck travel may reach 460 million
> miles per day. …
>
> … The number of NHS miles carrying large volumes and high percentages of trucks is forecast
> to increase dramatically by 2040. Segments with more than 8,500 trucks per day and where
> at least every fourth vehicle is a truck are forecast to reach 42,000 miles, an increase of more
> than 175 percent from 2011. …
Trucking doesn’t require intermodal switching for the last 100 miles; it is not going away, even if rail can be improved to f=gain more market share.
As stated earlier, it seems very likely that long haul trucking is early pickings for autonomous vehicles, or minimally semi-autonomous vehicles train-like slaved to a lead truck driver in tight formation, [platooning](https://www.forbes.com/sites/richardbishop1/2020/05/02/us-states-are-allowing-automated-follower-truck-platooning-while-the-swedes-may-lead-in-europe/?sh=535e9066d7e8) (increasing fuel efficiency/range). Such can be done with diesel tractors of course, but it articulates with electrification well.
> [@](#):
>
> In second generation “automated following” platooning systems, the follow truck operates at SAE Level 4 while the lead truck is driven normally. The follow truck Operational Design Domain is tightly defined, encompassing the lead truck and any activity in the inter-vehicle gap. The lead truck driver is supported by ADAS systems including [Forward Collision Avoidance and Mitigation](https://www.fleetowner.com/technology/article/21701782/collision-mitigation-require-it-or-wait). Fuel savings combine with enhanced driver productivity in the lead truck and labor savings in the follower truck to greatly enhance return-on-investment.
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### Author:  [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)
#### Post date: [February 7, 2021, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/road-trips-w-electric-vehicles/932148/160 "2021-02-07T22:31:32Z")
But my point is that, at least in theory, rail freight (and passenger transport as well) allows for a large reduction in the battery dependency issue. For long haul transport, the requirement for battery payload could be reduced by moving the juice through the track system instead of hauling the weight of the batteries on the train. There are, yes, obvious limitations and drawbacks, but for transport of distances greater than a few hundred miles, it seems like electrified rail would have genuine advantages over BEV truck transport, even with autonomous trucks.
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