# Robert E Lee joins the Union? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 4, 2013, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-e-lee-joins-the-union/654807 "2013-04-04T05:34:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-e-lee-joins-the-union/654807/1 "2013-04-04T05:34:20Z")
Back in April of 1861, Robert E. Lee was apparently offered command of the defense of Washington D.C. as a major general; he of course refused, resigned, and joined up with the Virginia state forces that same week. So . . . what happens if he instead fires off a snappy salute for the gent in the White House, in hopes of playing saboteur from within? ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-e-lee-joins-the-union/654807/2 "2013-04-04T06:09:51Z")
I think it’s James McPherson who said if Lee had joined the Union army the war would have probably ended quicker, before emancipation been issued and the South utterly destroyed. In the end, Lee fighting for the allowed for the South to have to change. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-e-lee-joins-the-union/654807/3 "2013-04-04T06:21:07Z")
He sets up the Union army for a major loss in the first battle. He needs a confederate to let the Confederate army know that he’s on their side, then concentrates the Union forces in some location where they can be flanked and defeated. To reduce the number of the Union troops to face he sends contingents out to nearby locations to act as reinforcements. All of this is known in advance by the Confederate army and they end up capturing a huge number of soldiers and tons of weapons. Then they march on Washington and force the Union to recognize the independence of the Confederacy. Of course he would never of done any of this. He wouldn’t have agreed to side with the Union unless he meant it, and he’d never throw a battle. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-e-lee-joins-the-union/654807/4 "2013-04-04T15:24:25Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Of course he would never of done any of this. He wouldn’t have agreed to side with the Union unless he meant it, and he’d never throw a battle. Indeed. If RE Lee was anything, he was a gentleman of honor. That he chose to fight for VA rather than the US (despite, as I understand it, not being particularly convinced of the wisdom of succession) is an interesting commentary on the different attitude towards one’s state at the time. At the time, it wasn’t uncommon to think of oneself as a Virginian (or New Yorker, or Ohioan or whatever) first and a citizen of the United States second. The War itself is largely what changed that. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-e-lee-joins-the-union/654807/5 "2013-04-04T16:43:32Z")
Like Shelby Foote said "The Civil War made us an “is.” The United States IS versus the United States ARE. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-e-lee-joins-the-union/654807/6 "2013-04-04T16:44:38Z")
Arlington would today be the most valuable privately owned home in the U.S.A… ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-e-lee-joins-the-union/654807/7 "2013-04-04T17:43:22Z")
If Lee were the sort that would even consider taking a position in the Union Army to sabotage it from within, he wouldn’t have been the sort to be offered the position in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-e-lee-joins-the-union/654807/8 "2013-04-04T18:02:14Z")
> [@LawMonkey](#): > > Indeed. If RE Lee was anything, he was a gentleman of honor. If he was anything close, he would have at the very least sat the war out and not committed acts of treason. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-e-lee-joins-the-union/654807/9 "2013-04-04T23:33:57Z")
Sigh… Look, I’m one of the most pro-union guys you’ll ever hope to meet… And, no, Lee was not a “Traitor.” That was the point of **Law Monkey** ’s and **Push You Down** ’s posts: Americans, at the time, didn’t think of the U.S. in the way we do today. You are fallaciously using today’s mind-set to condemn a man, who lived in a very different time and had a very different set of political ethics. U.S. Grant himself takes a softer tone and a conciliatory view: > [@](#): > > What General Lee’s feelings were I do not know. As he was a man of much dignity, with an impassable face, it was impossible to say whether he felt inwardly glad that the end had finally come, or felt sad over the result, and was too manly to show it. Whatever his feelings, they were entirely concealed from my observation; but my own feelings, which had been quite jubilant on the receipt of his letter [proposing negotiations], were sad and depressed. I felt like anything rather than rejoicing at the downfall of a foe who had fought so long and valiantly, and had suffered so much for a cause, though that cause was, I believe, one of the worst for which a people ever fought, and one for which there was the least excuse Your extremism is badly misplaced. ---
**Author:** ![LawMonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d6d6ee/32.png) [@LawMonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LawMonkey)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2013, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-e-lee-joins-the-union/654807/10 "2013-04-04T23:59:38Z")
Well said, **Trinopus**. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-e-lee-joins-the-union/654807/11 "2013-04-05T01:49:10Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > If he was anything close, he would have at the very least sat the war out and not committed acts of treason. > [@Trinopus](#): > > Sigh… Look, I’m one of the most pro-union guys you’ll ever hope to meet… And, no, Lee was not a “Traitor.” That was the point of **Law Monkey** ’s and **Push You Down** ’s posts: Americans, at the time, didn’t think of the U.S. in the way we do today. You are fallaciously using today’s mind-set to condemn a man, who lived in a very different time and had a very different set of political ethics. Furthermore, it’s a mistake to think “gentlemen of honor” don’t commit treason. Read any history book. IMHO, people of rigid principle seem likelier than the “morally flexible” to find themselves forced (or _imagine_ themselves forced) to take the difficult position of opposing the superorganism that is the kingdom or nation-state. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-e-lee-joins-the-union/654807/12 "2013-04-05T02:06:49Z")
Exactly! Just as George Washington, a man of honor, sat out the Revolutionary War, rather than commit an act of treason! ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-e-lee-joins-the-union/654807/13 "2013-04-05T02:12:39Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > If he was anything close, he would have at the very least sat the war out and not committed acts of treason. You mean like Washington? He committed treason too. 'Course, he _won_, so I guess that changes things… Argh! **Trinopus** , you already had your say (and said it well). Leave some for the rest of us! ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-e-lee-joins-the-union/654807/14 "2013-04-05T03:38:32Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Sigh… Look, I’m one of the most pro-union guys you’ll ever hope to meet… And, no, Lee was not a “Traitor.” That was the point of **Law Monkey** ’s and **Push You Down** ’s posts: Americans, at the time, didn’t think of the U.S. in the way we do today. You are fallaciously using today’s mind-set to condemn a man, who lived in a very different time and had a very different set of political ethics. It’s not just presentism, you know. People at the time called him a traitor for what he did. From the Letters to the Editor of the New York Times in response to the article about the Army of Northern Virginia’s surrender: > [@](#): > > Your reprint of LEE’s insolent “General Order No. 9,” is seasonable, when people who should know better, have been inclined to look upon leading traitors without regard to the enormity of their treason. It is nevertheless, a matter of surprise that this order has not been more prominently commented upon by the loyal press of the Union. There is one point in its connection, however, that has not been noticed. LEE surrendered his army to GRANT three days before the date, of this order, and his written parole, together with his officers, is dated the 9th of April; by what right or courtesy does he have the effrontry to issue a "Genera Order’’ to an army which he had surrendered? > > LEE deserves more condemnation than any other traitor who has upheld this bloody rebellion during four years, and it is to be hoped that loyal men will always mention his name simply as a traitor and murderer. Yours, &c., H and > [@](#): > > Let us have no more adulation of this insolent Virginian among loyal men. Let us hear no more of his grand aristocratic bearing under misfortune, his heroic defence, his noble character. He is a traitor: chief of the traitors who have attempted the assassination of the nation, and who have assassinated our beloved President; a traitor to the government that educated him at West Point, and that fostered, and favored, and honored him; a traitor to the flag he had pledged the honor of a soldier to defend; “a conscious and intelligent traitor in high places.” > > Chief on the staff of Gen. SCOTT at the outbreak of the war, he retained that position after hostilities had commenced, and fled to Richmond possessed of the secrets of his commander, his guilty conscience causing him “to sweat, as it were, great drops of blood.” > > For four years he has been the chief prop of this wicked rebellion, and has drank up the blood of thousands of our bravest and best. > > For nearly a year he has stood in sight of Libby Prison, and seen the brave men whom a true soldier’s instincts would have shielded from cruelty, enter within its hideous walls to be starved and rot and die, when his word would have protected every one of them. At last, beaten, surrounded, hopeless, he accepted the generous conditions of our magnanimous General-in-Chief, only to violate them on the instant. We assert that he has broken the spirit, if not the letter of the terms of capitulation, for these reasons: Many of his men and officers were suffered to escape after the capitulation had taken place. Again, on the next day he issued a military proclamation to his army. He had pledged his honor not to take up arms against the United States until exchanged. Taking up arms by LEE does not mean shouldering a musket, but directing the physical and moral forces of his army. At the opening of a campaign, the General appeals to the moral forces of his army by a military proclamation, knowing that these forces are superior to its mere physical power. To these same moral forces, LEE appealed in the proclamation he issued the day after the surrender. The generous conditions granted to him were no doubt induced by the expectations he had held out that he desired the restoration of peace. But the outburst of clemency and pardon which followed, have been met by him with insolence and defiance, and by a public declaration to his followers that the attempted assassination of this nation was a “duty faithfully performed for their country.” A generous clemency can win no peace from such a spirit as this. It is the spirit of the wild beast that yields to the heated iron, but tears the caressing hand. It is the spirit of the Indian who believes that kindness is inspired by fear. It is the spirit of the assassin, who creeps into the sick man’s chamber and strikes the dagger into him as he lies prostrate and helpless. > > The words we have said are the words of truth and justice. They are not uttered to excite feelings of vengeance. But we are in danger of confounding all distinctions between bloody treason and loyal, devoted, self-sacrificing patriotism; in danger of attempting to establish a peace by making the chiefs of the traitors equal with the loyal and true. All steps in that direction are utterly futile. They will have to be retraced. Let us then refrain, now and forever, from dishonoring the memories of our dead brothers, by honoring the names of traitors. And, in fact, in Lee’s obituary in the Times in 1870, it notes: > [@](#): > > In his farewell letter to Gen. Scott, he spoke of the struggle which this step had cost him, and his wife declared that he “wept tears of blood over this terrible war.” There are probably few who doubt the sincerity of his protestation, but thousands have regretted, and his best friends will ever have to regret, the error of judgment, the false conception of the allegiance due to his Government and his country, which led one so rarely gifted to cast his lot with traitors, and devote his splendid talents to the execution of a wicked plot to tear asunder and ruin the Republic in whose service his life had hitherto been spent. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-e-lee-joins-the-union/654807/15 "2013-04-05T03:59:06Z")
In his view Lee had the choices of dishonoring his country, dishonoring his state, or dishonoring himself by staying out of it. If he had chosen differently he would be known as a hero instead of a traitor. He made the wrong choice. As far as acting as saboteur or taking a dive in battle I don’t think he would do either. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-e-lee-joins-the-union/654807/16 "2013-04-05T13:14:09Z")
It’s not just Lee’s interpretation of “honor” that would have prevented him from throwing a battle. Such action would be antithetical to both his personality and his military “style” of command. There have been few American military figures who were as aggressive, as willing, even _driven_, to attack, regardless of the odds. Or, as Lee famously said, _because_ the odds were long…the weaker side must take the greater risks. Perhaps only Thomas “Stonewall” Jackson, Patton, and maybe Grant matched Lee for dedication to seizing the initiative and attacking. To imagine Lee losing _on purpose_ is to imagine a different man entirely. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-e-lee-joins-the-union/654807/17 "2013-04-05T15:33:58Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It’s not just presentism, you know. People at the time called him a traitor for what he did. Meh. The press of the time was very hyperbolic, as were politicians speaking in public. Lincoln was called all sorts of vile things, as was Jefferson Davis, by the newspapers susposedly on their respective “sides”. You think FoxNews is bad today? IMO, they don’t hold a candle to the crap of a century and a half ago. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-e-lee-joins-the-union/654807/18 "2013-04-05T15:43:24Z")
[QUOTE=mlees] Lincoln was called all sorts of vile things, as was Jefferson Davis, by the newspapers susposedly on their respective “sides”. [/QUOTE] McLellan openly called Lincoln a “baboon” and a fool to his men while he was still commander of the Army of the Potomac, while Davis’s problem with open insubordination from his generals, governors of Confederate states (some of whom were interested in seceding from the Confederacy to pursue a separate peace [especially once they were invaded] and none of whom were inclined to share provisions with other states), and above all the Confederate Congress would have resulted in a Spartacus like hundreds of miles of crucified bodies had Davis possessed the might and temperament of a Stalin. (Davis did not become a southern icon until long after the war; during and in the years following the war, he was not that popular, and his wife actually joked that one of the best moments in the war was when the paper shortage made most of the Confederate newspapers close down.) ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-e-lee-joins-the-union/654807/19 "2013-04-05T17:53:14Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > McLellan openly called Lincoln a “baboon” and a fool… > \ Yeah. I’m reading volume III of Shelby Foote’s Civil War “narrative”. He touches on this kinda stuff. The pettiness of the politics is pretty jaw dropping in some places. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-e-lee-joins-the-union/654807/20 "2013-04-05T17:54:51Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > McLellan openly called Lincoln a “baboon” and a fool to his men while he was still commander of the Army of the Potomac, while Davis’s problem with open insubordination from his generals, governors of Confederate states (some of whom were interested in seceding from the Confederacy to pursue a separate peace [especially once they were invaded] and none of whom were inclined to share provisions with other states), and above all the Confederate Congress would have resulted in a Spartacus like hundreds of miles of crucified bodies had Davis possessed the might and temperament of a Stalin. (Davis did not become a southern icon until long after the war; during and in the years following the war, he was not that popular, and his wife actually joked that one of the best moments in the war was when the paper shortage made most of the Confederate newspapers close down.) I wonder if MacLellan was doing what the OP suggested for Lee. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-e-lee-joins-the-union/654807.md?page=2)