Robert Hanssen to Rot In Jail, forever.

[Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas]

*Originally posted by Spritle *
**
There is a reason the founding fathers of this country included treason in the constitution and mentioned a punishment - and no other crimes. They were writing a document to establish a government to create a country. They understood that any act of treason serves to undermine and destroy that government actively or passively. They understood this so well that they put it in writing in the constitution and even spelled out a punishment. Let me say this again, because it’s real important.

Any act of treason serves to undermine and weaken the governments ability in its function to provide security.
**

Um, read the Constitution. Treason is providing aid to an enemy, i.e. a nation upon which Congress has declared war. Hansen didn’t commit treason at all. In fact, the last several years of his spying was for newly-democratic Russia, which was supposedly an ally.

I can understand that treason brings a drastic punishment, but I don’t think espionage should be punished anymore than usual breach of contract. Punishing a spy severely is like stating one particular country is better than any else on Earth, and it’s also incredibly hypocritical as the U.S. takes advantage of spies in other countries, as do all nations with intelligence services

UnuMondo

[The_Raven_1]

*Originally posted by UnuMondo *
**
Punishing a spy severely is like stating one particular country is better than any else on Earth **

Ah yes, moral relativism rears its ugly head…

:rolleyes:

-Rav

[Tranquilis]

I fear our government does subscribe to the “Whatever it takes” philosophy…

Welcome to the real world, dj. This is the business and behavior of every gov’t in the world.

Punishing a spy severely is like stating one particular country is better than any else on Earth…

How the hell did you come to this particularly idiotic conclusion, One World? Have you any clue just what Hanssen did? As a sworn servant of the United States, tasked with the mission of countering foreign spys, he violated his sworn word, violated the law it was his job to uphold, and materially damaged the ablity of the US to determine the intentions and capabilities for nations that are at least rivals, and may harbor ill-will towards the US. This didn’t just affect efforts in the former Soviet Union, but globally, as one of the few items of trade a case officer has is trust. Who will spy for an agency that can’t protect the identities of it’s spys?

By punishing spys severly, the message is not “we’re better than everyone else” (I still can’t believe you posted something so blatantly stupid), but rather: “Don’t aid our rivals, don’t damage our security”.

Again, I say: Be honest and balanced, or get your head taken off.

Hanssen has violated laws that call for death, and he did it for fun. He is scum, among the lowest possible forms of life. Had he done this for France, he’d still be a traitorous scum. Had he been Russian, and been selling his info to the US, he’d have still been traitorous scum, but he’d have useful to us. Just as he was useful to the Russians. I don’t blame the Russians: They were doing what every responsible gov’t does: Collect information on risks to their security.

Grow-up One World. Spying is the business of nations, and I don’t blame them for trying. It is our gov’t’s job to limit the effectiveness of other country’s spys and to increase the effectiveness of our own. Likewise for every other gov’t on earth. Treason by our own makes this hard. Treason by others make this easy. Traitors are scum (even when useful), and Hanssen is an arch-traitor, and didn’t have any justifying motive that can make me hate him even a little bit less.

Yes, this is a fairly hipocritical stance, but it’s unavoidable in this modern world, if you have any knowledge of how the world really works, and wish your country to not be at a disadvantage. Deal with it.

[Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas]

*Originally posted by Tranquilis *
Treason by our own makes this hard. Treason by others make this easy. Traitors are scum (even when useful), and Hanssen is an arch-traitor, and didn’t have any justifying motive that can make me hate him even a little bit less.

Geez, can you read the post you responded to? He didn’t commit treason! We were not at war with the Soviet Union, and federal Russia was an ally. Hansen breached his contract, that’s about the only thing that can be said of him, unless you want to be all jingoistic and start shouting “USA #1!!!” I don’t approve of Hansen’s motivations (that is, his love of money), and I wish he had given his information to periodicals that regularly published leaked classified information instead of to a foreign state that will keep the info just as secret, but I cannot see why his actions should be condemned any more than an employee of a corporation who breaks a NDA. You go on and on about how he was damaging national security, and during his Soviet days perhaps he was, but in the last few years he was giving information to an ally, someone who the U.S. had already decided not to consider a threat.

UnuMondo

[Tranquilis]

Item: Yes, he did commit treason: Cite.

Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

In as much as much of his spying was done during the Cold War, I’d call that treason. Further, he didn’t just break his contract, he violated a sworn oath. Additionally, he explicitly violated this law.

Russia is not an ally, but even if it was, unauthorized transmittal to a foriegn gov’t is still a crime. Spies for Israel, which is an ally have been prosecuted and jailed, too.

Get into the real world.

[Dreaming_of_Maria_Callas]

*Originally posted by Tranquilis *
**Item: Yes, he did commit treason: Cite.In as much as much of his spying was done during the Cold War, I’d call that treason. Further, he didn’t just break his contract, he violated a sworn oath. **

The Cold War was as much of a real war as the current war on terrorism, as far as the definition of treason is concerned. Which rock were you under when the board raised the question of what charges should be brought against John Walker Lindh?

**Get into the real world. **

Just because someone doesn’t subscribe to your particular realpolitik doesn’t mean that he or she isn’t in the real world. You yourself seem to have a problem with the world part, being so obsessed about one particular nation and its “security” (which apparently means the right of its intelligence services to do whatever the fuck they wish free of international scrutiny).

UnuMondo

[Tranquilis]

You yourself seem to have a problem with the world part, being so obsessed about one particular nation and its “security”…

Really? What an amazing conclusion. I guess I never posted this:

Had he been Russian, and been selling his info to the US, he’d have still been traitorous scum, but he’d have useful to us. Just as he was useful to the Russians. I don’t blame the Russians: They were doing what every responsible gov’t does: Collect information on risks to their security.

If you can’t understand this, you’re really in a world of your own. Espionage is real, and if you’re unwilling to understand that, well, you’ve been living under a rock, to use your own phrase. I fear your mind is too limited to understand that I can understand it, and even accept it as a neccesity of real life, while still holding in utter contempt individuals that will aid other governments against their own (especially those that do it simply for fun).

As for James Lindh, I actually missed that entire debate. Care to provide a link?