# Robert Jordan, you are KILLING me! (the geekiest rant ever) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 20, 2001, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-jordan-you-are-killing-me-the-geekiest-rant-ever/77218 "2001-08-20T19:48:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2001, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-jordan-you-are-killing-me-the-geekiest-rant-ever/77218/41 "2001-08-21T21:36:32Z")
Leper! Outcast! Unclean! I love Stephen R. Donaldson. I read Lord Foul’s Bane in sixth grade on a dare. Even better, though, is his Gap series. Five books (that keep getting thicker and thicker as you go) and a rock solid conclusion. One of the best anti-heroes ever in the person of Angus Thermopyle. (Don’t call him thermo-pile). I liked the Second Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. I liked that he changed The Land so drastically in between the two series. Most authors would have produced a carbon copy of the original series. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2001, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-jordan-you-are-killing-me-the-geekiest-rant-ever/77218/42 "2001-08-21T22:53:53Z")
Anyone have a problem with Donaldson, he better have the guts to say it to may face. Just don’t be surprised if you find a white gold wedding band stuck up your nasal passage. I have everything he’s ever written: the first Covenenant series, the second Covenant series (which I think is as good as the first), the Mordent books (which are terrific), the Gap cycle (the world’s first character driven hard Science Fiction story), and both short story collections. As far as I’m concerned, they’re just about the only chances the Fantasy field has to be considered actual “mature” literature. But here I am, talking to people who won’t finish his books. How can you not read to the end of his storys? Donaldson can write a climax like no man alive. Oh, and Robert Jordan. He sucks. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-jordan-you-are-killing-me-the-geekiest-rant-ever/77218/43 "2001-08-22T02:25:06Z")
…and for those that can’t get enough of trashing the meandering puerile insipid stale bland corpse-of-a-million-otherwise-useful-trees that is the Wheel of Time, we have a parallel RJ-haters thread over at TORC. Come say hi 🙂 [http://www3.tolkienonline.com/thewhitecouncil/messageview.cfm?start=1&catid=23&threadid=21893](http://www3.tolkienonline.com/thewhitecouncil/messageview.cfm?start=1&catid=23&threadid=21893) _Gargoyle crosses his arms under his breasts, tugs his braid with his ham-sized fists, and leaves_ ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-jordan-you-are-killing-me-the-geekiest-rant-ever/77218/44 "2001-08-22T02:45:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alessan \* > \*\*But here I am, talking to people who won’t finish his books. How can you not read to the end of his storys? Donaldson can write a climax like no man alive. > \*\* Who here has said they don’t read to the end of his books? I may be missing it but I don’t see it. I too have read everything Donaldson has written. The second Covenant trilogy is very good in my opinion. Just not nearly as good as the first and it does seem added on to me. _Mordant’s Need_ is terrible in my opinion and hopefully that won’t get me a ring up my nose. The _Gap_ series is fantasic, but since it is science fiction I figured it was out of the realm of discussion for this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-jordan-you-are-killing-me-the-geekiest-rant-ever/77218/45 "2001-08-22T03:34:22Z")
**I** said I didn’t read to the end of his books. Well, actually, I said I didn’t read to the end of the first book in Mordant’s Need. And I’ll say it to the face of anyone, including Donaldson himself. At a convention. In front of his fans. I didn’t like the second Thomas Covenant series, but I read it all the way through. The first two books were just agonizing, and it seems pretty obvious to me that Donaldson hated writing those two. The final book was back up to the tone set in the the first series, and was pretty decent, but that’s one out of three: Not too good. Nothing wrong with a tortured, despairing protagonist, _if_ the author can find some way to make you identify with him. In books one and two of the second series, it’s just not possible for me to identify with TC. He’s too far gone, and the despair is a smothering blanket. In Mordant’s Need, there’s never any chance to identify. The tortured soul has no proper anchor or handle to grasp, and I wound up just letting the book go. The Gap series is promising, but has failed to capture my interest sufficiently. There’s _nothing_ wrong with Donaldson’s writing. It’s usually excellent, which might be part of the problem: When he decides to produce a mood, he _produces_ it, and even if it’s a mood I don’t want, I feel it. Which is why Mordant’s Need sits unfinished. Now RJ, he’s a fish of another sort. While he lacks any sense of how to write women, develop a story line, or come to a conclusion, his lack of _immediacy_ means that it’s not so _personal_, which fact has probably saved the WOT series from it’s richly deserved fate. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-jordan-you-are-killing-me-the-geekiest-rant-ever/77218/46 "2001-08-22T04:35:06Z")
OK, Tranquilis. I don’t necessarily agree with you (for instance, I thought _The One Tree_ was excellent,in an Odesseyan sort of way), but I see where you’re coming from. Donaldson is an acquired taste. Still, two points you should remember: First of all, while Donaldson’s central characters tend to be too tortured, flawed and limited, he always surrounds them with other larger-than-life, more heroic characters who serve as a moral core to the story. So for every Thomas Covenant, there’s a Mhoram and a Foamfollower; and for every Morn Hiland there’s a Warden Dios and a Min Donner. Besides, call me an idealist, but I didn’t really care whether Covenenant was sympathetic enough; it wasn’t his fate that interested me, but rather that of the Land. Second, a Donaldson book (or series) is more than the sum of its parts. Steven R. writes crescendos, wwaving tension and anguish into ever-rising chords until he reaches a perfect climax - a climax which gives meaning to everything that passed before, no matter how painful it was at the time. Donaldson deals in catharsis, and to reach that you have to suffer. In other words, finish reading **Mordant**. You’ll thank me for it. As for Jordan - my main complaint is that he lacks _focus_. His characters never seem to have any goals - at least not any clearly defined ones. They just seem to bumble along incompetently from crisis to crisis, micromanaging and putting out brushfires. The story lacks characters with determination and willpower, characters with sufficiant _gravity_ - an Aragorn son of Arathorn, say, a Corwin of Amber, a Roland son of Steven or an Alessan di Tigana. That’s why I liked Lan and Moiraine so much - they actually cared about something beyond themselves. I wish the books had been about them instead of those yokels from the Two Rivers. ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-jordan-you-are-killing-me-the-geekiest-rant-ever/77218/47 "2001-08-22T05:07:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alessan \* > **In other words, finish reading Mordant. You’ll thank me for it.** Well, I did finish it and (as I said) still thought it sucked. But that was in high school, and if you are willing to endorse it so heartily, I think I’ll put it on the list of things to give a second chance. ---
**Author:** ![Tranquilis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tranquilis/32/3639_2.png) [@Tranquilis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tranquilis)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-jordan-you-are-killing-me-the-geekiest-rant-ever/77218/48 "2001-08-22T13:03:56Z")
> [@](#): > > …finish reading **Mordant**. You’ll thank me for it. I don’t mind suffering for my reward. Hell, I read all the way through The Dragonbone Chair / Stone Of Farewell / Green Angel Tower series without complaint, and found I was glad I’d done so. I _don’t_, however, want to be _tortured_, and Donaldson has the power to do that with real skill, a skill which he freely excercises in too many cases. Never-the-less, being that it _is_ Donaldson, and has your very strong recommendation, I’ll put it back in the queue. I hope I don’t regret this… **RJ** , however, has pretty much burned his bridges with me. I’m done with his work. ---
**Author:** ![Danimal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bb73d2/32.png) [@Danimal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Danimal)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-jordan-you-are-killing-me-the-geekiest-rant-ever/77218/49 "2001-08-22T14:01:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DynoSaur \* > And, speaking of utter shock caused by what the author does to his characters, we have Mr. Martin. I haven’t read the newest one yet, but it’s in the queue. Right after I finish a Pratchett and a Gaiman. > > Martin - why do you hate the Starks so much? And why must I read it? > \*\* I don’t think Martin hates the Starks. And he doesn’t want us to hate the Starks; he wants us to root for them. That’s the wonderful thing about Song of Ice and Fire; we _fear_ for the characters we love, because we _don’t_ know if they’re going to make it through. Just like we do in reality. What is even more wonderful is that he has given us the character of Tyrion Lannister, who is also likeable in many ways. And we pretty well know that not everybody we like can make it through to the end. ---
**Author:** ![Kantalooppi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/a5b964/32.png) [@Kantalooppi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kantalooppi)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-jordan-you-are-killing-me-the-geekiest-rant-ever/77218/50 "2001-08-22T16:07:51Z")
> [@](#): > > Kantalooppi, you mean to tell me that there are eighteen RJ WOT books loose in your country?! Why haven’t you declared war on us yet? Or at least on Robert Jordan? Actually, only about 12 so far. Translators are going at book six. However, they’ve divided latest two books to three books instead of two books like usually. I fear for the worst. ---
**Author:** ![magdalene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@magdalene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magdalene)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-jordan-you-are-killing-me-the-geekiest-rant-ever/77218/51 "2001-08-22T18:10:56Z")
Okay, I finally finished it. The ending kind of sucked. This book could have been 200 pages long and still advanced the relevant plot points: Elayne’s pregnancy and the surrounding circumstances Mat and the prophecy involving the Daughter of the Nine Moons Nynaeve and Rand’s cleansing of the source Rand’s alliance with Cadsuane The kidnapping of Faile - which happened in the book before this and apparently won’t happen until the …sigh…next book. I am pleased to report that Moraine is dead and **Bashere** , you’re still alive, buddy! Apparently you are the uncle of one of the 70,000 minor characters and he mentioned you. ---
**Author:** ![My\_Darn\_Snake\_Legs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f14d63/32.png) [@My\_Darn\_Snake\_Legs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/My_Darn_Snake_Legs)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-jordan-you-are-killing-me-the-geekiest-rant-ever/77218/52 "2001-08-22T18:55:13Z")
Jordan has nothing on Terry Brooks in the no-plot-having dpeartment. Brooks describes any noun for at least 3 pages before moving on to the next pretty rock. I loved the Shannara series, but even it suffered from that. All of you who don’t like Goodind,roast slowly. He knows how to advance a plot through the resolution of the current problem. It would suck to be one of his charcters though. They do seem to get tortured more than is absolutely necessary. On the other hand, they can at least get laid, witch only Jordan’s Mat Cauthon can seem to do, and he seems to have disappeared in _Path of Daggers_…Bring him back! [continuing with the name-dropping] David Eddings is king as far as I am concerned. None of his books have ever made me want to stop reading, though some of them have made me skip meals to finish a chapter. –==the sax man==– ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-jordan-you-are-killing-me-the-geekiest-rant-ever/77218/53 "2001-08-22T19:44:03Z")
**Danimal** , your remarks on Martin are especially well put. He is perhaps the most promising storyteller in “epic” fantasy today. I eagerly, eagerly await the next installment. For those who are as impatient as I am, his books are always available months ahead on [amazon.co.uk](http://amazon.co.uk). MR ---
**Author:** ![navtechie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b19c9b/32.png) [@navtechie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/navtechie)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-jordan-you-are-killing-me-the-geekiest-rant-ever/77218/54 "2001-08-22T20:13:38Z")
I am currently in the middle of Book 4 of WOT. I noticed in book the painful travelogues he writes. I have found myself skimming entire pages to get to parts where something is actually happening. I think the plan for Book 5 is to go to the library and read the last 100 pages. hmph. AS for other writers, I have enjoyed most of Raymond Feist’s books…quick flowing plots that hold your interest. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-jordan-you-are-killing-me-the-geekiest-rant-ever/77218/55 "2001-08-22T20:33:20Z")
**SMUsex** , come come now! Rand is boinking Aviendha, Elayne, and Min! Perrin is boinking Faile, and Mat was gettting laid regularly for a time! Nynaeve mellowed out a lot after getting serviced by Lan! Much hotter than anything that weirdo Goodkind wrote! I don’t like authors who toy with the reader’s emotions with gratuitous sexual torture. ---
**Author:** ![TroubleAgain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e480ec/32.png) [@TroubleAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroubleAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-jordan-you-are-killing-me-the-geekiest-rant-ever/77218/56 "2001-08-22T20:46:48Z")
I love the series, in spite of it’s flaws. However, I find myself quoting “The Agony and the Ecstasy”: The Pope to Michaelangelo: "When will you make an _end?_ Michaelangelo to the Pope: "When I am _finished!_ I mean, enough already. Finish the damned series! Bring on Tarmon Gaidon! ---
**Author:** ![MikeG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikeg/32/4329_2.png) [@MikeG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeG)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-jordan-you-are-killing-me-the-geekiest-rant-ever/77218/57 "2001-08-22T21:07:11Z")
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrrGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGgggggggggggggggggHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhh!!! Whew, I needed that. OK First I’d like to give a hearty Thankyewver’much to **Vileorb** for lending me the first two books of the WoT series. NOT! You see gentle reader, I am that peculiar type of reader who CANNOT put down a book once picked up. This extends to series as well. For example, I was given the first two Pratchett novels a few months ago (guess by whom?). Within 50 days, I had read EVERY Pratchett book out with the notable exceptoion of Guards, Guards! and Pyramids, only because they were OUT OF PRINT. Now that they have been released in the last month, I have added them. Yes, thats over 20 books in 50 days, along with other books, work and kids. Back to Robert Jordan. **Vileorb** gave me the first two books last Thursday, Aug 9. As of Wednesday, Aug 22nd, I have read all but the Ninth Book Of Infinite Suffering. I finished Path Of Daggers last night around 3 in the morning. I will admit I skipped numerous stretches of dense, leaden, descriptive text that had nothing to do with the advancement of the storyline. Another point I noticed is that somewhere in #8, a character refers to the planet they are on as “Earth” This was the first use of the word in the series and baffled me a bit. Just how much of this is supposed to be carried from Age to Age? I mean the obvious references to our own culture like _oosqai_ as the Gaelic \* Uisgea Beatha\*(sp) “whiskey”, almost all the songs referred to in the first couple books “Rand and Mat take a Walk” are Irish or Scots tunes, some of which I even know how to play! ( This did make it kinda neat to have a running soundtrack that I hope is close to the authors’ intent) I agree that this is a series that has (or had) enormous potential. Good characters, a nicely rich world with history, some sense of Fate, all kinds of bad guys. But it has dragged on too long. I bought #8 in paperback ( all the rest I found used) but I will NOT buy #9. $30 is waaaay too much! **Magdalene** , I will be calling you shortly in order to borrow it if that is all right as I want to see what does happen. I want closure! …and for _saidin_ to be cleansed of the Taint. ---
**Author:** ![magdalene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df788c/32.png) [@magdalene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magdalene)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-jordan-you-are-killing-me-the-geekiest-rant-ever/77218/58 "2001-08-22T21:24:11Z")
Mike, I took #9 out of the library downtown. If you read my prior post you know all that you need to without reading the book. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DarkPrince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce73a5/32.png) [@DarkPrince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DarkPrince)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-jordan-you-are-killing-me-the-geekiest-rant-ever/77218/59 "2001-08-22T22:41:20Z")
What fool dares insult the great Goodkind? :eek::mad: ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-jordan-you-are-killing-me-the-geekiest-rant-ever/77218/60 "2001-08-22T22:44:00Z")
The kind of fool who has read the last two books in the series. They were truly horrible. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-jordan-you-are-killing-me-the-geekiest-rant-ever/77218.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robert-jordan-you-are-killing-me-the-geekiest-rant-ever/77218.md?page=4)