# Roberts confirmation hearings: Thoughts? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 13, 2005, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roberts-confirmation-hearings-thoughts/321500 "2005-09-13T22:30:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roberts-confirmation-hearings-thoughts/321500/41 "2005-09-15T02:38:10Z")
Airman is right. We do not need robots and ideologues. We need people who can think for themselves in a logical and honest manner. So called “litmus tests” only serve to select “your” ideologue as opposed to “their” ideologue. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roberts-confirmation-hearings-thoughts/321500/42 "2005-09-15T03:09:09Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > He seems a lot like Rehnquist in ideology, actually. Remember that in his dissent in _Roe v Wade_, Rehnquist was not anti-abortion but was more concerned that there were no limitations on abortion rights. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roberts-confirmation-hearings-thoughts/321500/43 "2005-09-15T03:13:42Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Maybe Biden is trying to get something out of him other than: Roberts: Hmmmm Senator, that is a good question. Let me think about what Neil Kinnock said about that. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roberts-confirmation-hearings-thoughts/321500/44 "2005-09-15T03:20:41Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Yes, because we all know that judges appointed by Democratic Presidents have nothing better to do that to pull out random rulings out of thin air to annoy die-hard conservatives like yourself. :rolleyes: > > Meanwhile, dopey me thought the judge was following the _letter of the law,_ as judges are supposed to… You mean the letter of the law that says in California for student saying the pledge is optional, thus any coersion is minimal? Oh that’s right, the Pledge is not mandatory, but then again this is the same Circuit that had the County of Los Angeles remove a cross representing the California Missions (an important part of LA County history) since it established religion. ---
**Author:** ![OliverTwistofLime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/b487fb/32.png) [@OliverTwistofLime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OliverTwistofLime)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roberts-confirmation-hearings-thoughts/321500/45 "2005-09-15T03:32:47Z")
I believe will be Sandra Day O’Connerish on the SCOTUS…and Bush selected him knowing this. Its the next choice or two where Bush jams us with a Rehnquist type IMO. Roberts will make a great Supreme Court judge. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roberts-confirmation-hearings-thoughts/321500/46 "2005-09-15T07:14:03Z")
> [@SaintCad](#): > > You mean the letter of the law that says in California for student saying the pledge is optional, thus any coersion is minimal? Yeah, and we all know everything’s hunky-dory as long as you’re not making them recite the pledge at gunpoint. :rolleyes: **Q.** Do California schools have to conduct Pledge of Allegiance ceremonies? **A.** California’s Education Code requires public elementary and secondary schools to conduct daily patriotic exercises, although schools may substitute other patriotic exercises for the Pledge of Allegiance. –[Pledge, Patriotism, and Prayer in California Public Schools](http://www.aclunc.org/students/pledge.html) A 13-year-old Jehovah’s Witness threatened to sue the Highline School District when a teacher made him stand outside in the rain for 15 minutes because he wouldn’t recite the Pledge of Allegiance. District policy allows students to remain respectfully silent during the pledge. –[Education Intelligence Agency](http://www.eiaonline.com/archives/19980316.htm) “Although students cannot be forced to participate in recitation of the Pledge, the school district is nonetheless conveying a message of state endorsement of a religious belief when it requires public school teachers to recite, and lead the recitation of, the current form of the Pledge.” –Judge Alfred T. Goodwin, 9th Circuit Judge, June 2002 ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roberts-confirmation-hearings-thoughts/321500/47 "2005-09-15T14:18:30Z")
So what you are saying is that you cannot find any examples of students being coerced to recite the Pledge as a matter of policy? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roberts-confirmation-hearings-thoughts/321500/48 "2005-09-15T14:45:43Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So what you are saying is that you cannot find any examples of students being coerced to recite the Pledge as a matter of policy? > > Regards, > Shodan No, apparently they just have to stand out in the rain for a quarter of an hour instead. Totally acceptable… ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roberts-confirmation-hearings-thoughts/321500/49 "2005-09-15T15:17:17Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > No, apparently they just have to stand out in the rain for a quarter of an hour instead. Totally acceptable… Obviously, it’s not, but when the teacher did this, was he/she acting in accordance with school policy? Was the teacher disciplined? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2005, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roberts-confirmation-hearings-thoughts/321500/50 "2005-09-16T00:34:45Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Yeah, and we all know everything’s hunky-dory as long as you’re not making them recite the pledge at gunpoint. :rolleyes: I’m glad we agree. As a California state teacher, I make allowance for students who don’t want to say the Pledge as does every other teacher I know. Saying the Pledge is not mandatory for the students. If you want to argue about perceived coersion, peer-pressure, or anything else that’s fine - but legally students can without reason refuse to say the Pledge with no repercusions so don’t talk about a _mandatory_ Pledge as if it is illegal for the students to refuse to say the Pledge. Another point is lost here: as teachers, we should be teaching the students self-advocacy skills. We exhort them to speak up to ask questions or comment on the material but dissuade them from challenging the authority of the teacher. I love when students accuse me of being wrong or question why they “have to” say the Pledge because it means that they are thinking about the _why_ of things. There is an appropriate way to challenge authority (not "Hey Mr. Assclown. Are you stupid?!) which is another skill that should be taught. Student do have a right to know why they are expected to meeting certain expections such as using an algorithm to solve a math problem, using Standard American English when the aks a question, and reciting the Pledge every morning. Lastly, we need to teach student how to make choices. If a student is uncomfortable saying “under God” then do they stand for their convictions, silently mouth the words to fool everyone, or say the words because “to get along you need to go along”? Yes there is peer-pressure for students to say the Pledge . . . and have sex, smoke, drink, do drugs, skip class, drive recklessly, etc. Rather than taking away their choice, let’s use this as a teaching moment to educate them how to make good choices and maybe we’ll have fewer drunk, high, truant teens screwing at 95 mph with a cigarette in their mouth. > [@rjung](#): > > **Q.** Do California schools have to conduct Pledge of Allegiance ceremonies? > **A.** California’s Education Code requires public elementary and secondary schools to conduct daily patriotic exercises, although schools may substitute other patriotic exercises for the Pledge of Allegiance. Absolutely correct and to be honest, I think reading passages of the Declaration of Independence, the Preamble to the Constitution, Common Sense by Thomas Paine, The "Give me Liberty . . . " speech, the “Star-Spangled Banner”, etc. should be encouraged as alternatives to the Pledge at least some of the time. > [@rjung](#): > > A 13-year-old Jehovah’s Witness threatened to sue the Highline School District when a teacher made him stand outside in the rain for 15 minutes because he wouldn’t recite the Pledge of Allegiance. District policy allows students to remain respectfully silent during the pledge. I’ve seen a teacher do this for a disciplinary problem as well. Teacher fuck-up plain and simple and they should lose their credential. > [@rjung](#): > > “Although students cannot be forced to participate in recitation of the Pledge, the school district is nonetheless conveying a message of state endorsement of a religious belief when it requires public school teachers to recite, and lead the recitation of, the current form of the Pledge.” > –Judge Alfred T. Goodwin, 9th Circuit Judge, June 2002 Very true, teachers are legally required to lead the Pledge. This to me is a bigger violation of right as I am not allowed an option like the students are. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roberts-confirmation-hearings-thoughts/321500.md?page=2)