# Robin Thicke ordered to pay $7M for Blurred Lines Plagiarism **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 11, 2015, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robin-thicke-ordered-to-pay-7m-for-blurred-lines-plagiarism/714732 "2015-03-11T00:09:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2015, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robin-thicke-ordered-to-pay-7m-for-blurred-lines-plagiarism/714732/101 "2015-03-13T23:11:45Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > **pulykamell,** I’d be glad to answer your questions, but I probably risk being accused of a hijack for this thread. As the OP, I can only wish every thread had such informative posts. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2015, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robin-thicke-ordered-to-pay-7m-for-blurred-lines-plagiarism/714732/102 "2015-03-14T01:06:29Z")
Ah, so this is how it begins that we wind up with nothing but [dubstep](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R_xVC5GwFg) in the future. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2015, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robin-thicke-ordered-to-pay-7m-for-blurred-lines-plagiarism/714732/103 "2015-03-14T01:29:30Z")
Thank you Musicat for the information. I’ve collected some vintage sheet music that I want to eventually play. Fifth Dimension, The Association, The Carpenters, quite a bit of Ronnie Milsap and Conway Twitty. All in very good condition. My oldest piece is The Wabash Cannonball sheet music printed in the late 1930’s or early 40’s. Amazing what they sell on Ebay for just a few bucks. I only buy what I want to learn and play. Now I’m wondering how accurate they are. 😉 I’ll find out when I start learning them. Key changes aren’t a big deal. I hope the notes and chords are right. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2015, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robin-thicke-ordered-to-pay-7m-for-blurred-lines-plagiarism/714732/104 "2015-03-14T04:24:47Z")
[Stevie Wonder](http://www.noise11.com/news/stevie-wonder-says-blurred-lines-is-nothing-like-got-to-give-it-up-20150313) thinks the court made the wrong decision. According to the linked article, “The Gaye family is currently investigating the similarity between Pharrell Williams’ [Happy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6Sxv-sUYtM) and Marvin Gaye’s [Ain’t That Peculiar](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaPl_mmmHnY).” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2015, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robin-thicke-ordered-to-pay-7m-for-blurred-lines-plagiarism/714732/105 "2015-03-14T04:46:32Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > [Stevie Wonder](http://www.noise11.com/news/stevie-wonder-says-blurred-lines-is-nothing-like-got-to-give-it-up-20150313) thinks the court made the wrong decision. > > According to the linked article, “The Gaye family is currently investigating the similarity between Pharrell Williams’ [Happy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6Sxv-sUYtM) and Marvin Gaye’s [Ain’t That Peculiar](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaPl_mmmHnY).” The hell? I can’t hear any similarity there. If anyone might have a claim, I’d say it’s Velvet Hammer with a song titled, wait for it, [“Happy.”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJDFZCY14Ug) (Not that I think it’s a rip-off, just a lot closer in feel and, well, even the title.) ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2015, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robin-thicke-ordered-to-pay-7m-for-blurred-lines-plagiarism/714732/106 "2015-03-14T05:21:47Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > **pulykamell,** I’d be glad to answer your questions, but I probably risk being accused of a hijack for this thread. Nevertheless, because I feel it does relate to the OP, here goes… **Musicat** , this is, for me, one of the best, most informative and interesting posts I’ve ever read on the Straight Dope Message Board. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2015, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robin-thicke-ordered-to-pay-7m-for-blurred-lines-plagiarism/714732/107 "2015-03-14T06:50:04Z")
We need to convince Musicat to do one of those Ask the \_\_\_\_ Anything threads in Mundane. 😃 Transcription has always challenged and fascinated me. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2015, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robin-thicke-ordered-to-pay-7m-for-blurred-lines-plagiarism/714732/108 "2015-03-14T19:19:32Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Thank you Musicat for the information. I’ve collected some vintage sheet music that I want to eventually play. Fifth Dimension, The Association, The Carpenters, quite a bit of Ronnie Milsap and Conway Twitty. All in very good condition. My oldest piece is The Wabash Cannonball sheet music printed in the late 1930’s or early 40’s. Amazing what they sell on Ebay for just a few bucks. I only buy what I want to learn and play. > > Now I’m wondering how accurate they are. 😉 I’ll find out when I start learning them. Key changes aren’t a big deal. I hope the notes and chords are right. Thank you (all, as in y’all) for the compliments. I can’t say much about 1930’s & 1040’s printed music (did Cole Porter have a copyist?), but I suspect the sheet music you have, probably piano/vocal arrangements, arrived at the music store in much the same way they did in the 1960’s and 70’s. Now we’re getting into some territory I have a little personal knowledge about. First of all, any piano/vocal arrangement in the store, ca. 1950-1980, was not written by the composer. It may not have been proofread by the composer. The composer may not have ever seen it, ever, nor cared much (there are some exceptions, like Howard Brubeck’s transcriptions of brother Dave’s jazz works, which are outstanding, IMHO.) Most likely, a copyist/arranger was handed a recording and a lead sheet and ordered to produce a piano/vocal suitable for Mrs. Average Grandma Piano Player Plunker; not too hard, not too challenging, but _right now_. This often meant that chords were simplified (a dominant seventh with a sharp nine and flat 5? Not a chance!) Rhythms were routinely simplified, sort of pushed into a mold that eliminated more subtle syncopations. Did the singer of the popular recording stretch out a passage and not end exactly on a downbeat? That probably wasn’t reflected in the lead sheet, and wasn’t on the p/v arrangement, either. So beware, if you are trying to recreate a song from printed music only (in the pop era, not the classical), it would be wise to listen to a recording of it as a guide. Don’t assume the written version is anything but someone’s approximation of it, and possibly an inaccurate one, too. If anyone would like to see some of my work in this field, I invite you to search for a copy of Cat Steven’s [Izitso](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izitso) album, the piano/vocal book. I did all the p/v arrangements in the book (I had nothing to do with the recording, which came first). I’m sure this was a little out of the ordinary at the time for several reasons. I was glad to show Cat Stevens my pencil sketches before they went to the engraver (he didn’t read music, so I played them for him), and I insisted on getting a proof copy back from the engraver to check for errors before it went to press. There were many, and the printer was quite upset that I wanted to proof it first; he said that never happened, and we were wasting time. This venture was probably unusual in that I wrote a few counter-melody lines that I thought enhanced the arrangements. I was fully prepared to remove them if the composer had requested that, since they weren’t his compositions, but he liked them enough that we kept them. So if you listen to the recording along with the p/v arrangements, and don’t hear a line that’s printed, that might be mine! I had to sign a legal document so I couldn’t claim composition royalties, but in exchange, I got to keep my name on the book’s credits. One more anecdotal story that (I hope) illustrates the OP. I was asked to do a piano/vocal arrangement for Rosanne Cash’s [Seven Year Ache,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Year_Ache_(song)) as the lovely string arrangements were written by the bass player, Emory Gordy, and he recommended me. I gave them a pencil sketch, and pointed out that even though most p/v arrangements put the melody in the right hand, this would be a very difficult song to play that way and still keep the great rhythm feel going. I suggested leaving the melody in the vocal line, and eliminating it from the accompaniment, and I wrote a terrific piano line that captured the orchestra, strings and all. I played both versions for the producer (or publisher, I don’t remember who), but he told me that no matter what I said, he was going to stick to convention, and insisted on having the melody line in the piano right hand, even if the rhythm was totally screwed up as a result. I gave him my arrangement as I suggested; he paid me and tossed it out. If you can find this song in an eBay bin, whatever was published was not my writing. And a word about keys…keeping with the Granny in Podunk concept, if a song was originally in a key with many sharps and flats, it will probably be transposed and printed with fewer. _Take Five,_ IIRC, was originally played in E flat minor, but sheet music typically shows it in E minor. Scot Joplin’s _Maple Leaf Rag_ was written in a sharp key (I forget which, but I’ve seen an early 1900’s copy), but it’s usually printed in C Major. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2015, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robin-thicke-ordered-to-pay-7m-for-blurred-lines-plagiarism/714732/109 "2015-03-14T19:46:52Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > Oh and if Tom Petty actually threatened Sam Smith to get a credit on that, it’s time to take him out behind the barn and shoot him. And then everyone who could bring a copyright claim for his work. And I loved Tom Petty until [I just read that.](http://www.vox.com/2015/3/10/8187225/robin-thicke-blurred-lines-gaye) > > That is some spurious horse-spittle right there. Indeed. Petty’s and Smith’s songs only sound similar for a very brief time. They are very different otherwise, at least they sound that way to me. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2015, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robin-thicke-ordered-to-pay-7m-for-blurred-lines-plagiarism/714732/110 "2015-03-15T00:09:09Z")
Thanks again Musicat. Alway enjoy learning about music and how it gets published. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2015, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robin-thicke-ordered-to-pay-7m-for-blurred-lines-plagiarism/714732/111 "2015-03-15T03:49:30Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Scot Joplin’s _Maple Leaf Rag_ was written in a sharp key (I forget which, but I’ve seen an early 1900’s copy), but it’s usually printed in C Major. I believe it’s in Ab. At least that’s the version I’m most familiar with. I’m not sure I’ve seen it in C. Are you thinking of “The Entertainer” perhaps? That one I’ve only seen in C. ---
**Author:** ![TCMF-2L](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tcmf-2l/32/16553_2.png) [@TCMF-2L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TCMF-2L)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robin-thicke-ordered-to-pay-7m-for-blurred-lines-plagiarism/714732/112 "2015-05-01T13:28:31Z")
The writers of **Mark Ronson’s Uptown Funk** have added the writers of the **Gap Band’s Oops Upside Your Head** to the official writing credits. The move is seen as one which wouldn’t have happened previously but has been done because of the **Blurred Lines** plagiarism case. > **[Uptown Funk credits Oops Up Side Your Head writers](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-32546788)** > > Mark Ronson and Bruno Mars give writers of The Gap Band's 1979 track Oops Up Side Your Head a writing credit on their hit Uptown Funk. TCMF-2L ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2015, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robin-thicke-ordered-to-pay-7m-for-blurred-lines-plagiarism/714732/113 "2015-05-01T22:03:52Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I believe it’s in Ab. At least that’s the version I’m most familiar with. I’m not sure I’ve seen it in C. Are you thinking of “The Entertainer” perhaps? That one I’ve only seen in C. You may be right about Maple Leaf Rag. I have a copy in a box in the basement that I really must dig into sometime, like Real Soon Now. It looks like a 1910 engraving source. However, I have a copy of MLR in C in a book right here, [Songs of the Gilded Age,](http://www.amazon.com/Songs-Gilded-Margaret-Bradford-Boni/dp/B0018NAAW6) published ca. 1960. It is in 2/4 time with sixteenth notes as the most common. The compilation is of 1890’s-era music, not a beginner’s piano book, somewhat intermediate in performing skill level. One of my favorite tune books to pull out and play with friends, although I confess I embellish the performance a little! The piano performance on the [Wiki page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maple_Leaf_Rag) is played in A flat. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robin-thicke-ordered-to-pay-7m-for-blurred-lines-plagiarism/714732/114 "2018-03-21T22:07:40Z")
[In the news today](https://apnews.com/484fdee5cf9e4418b71cbbf3bc541fd0/Court-sides-with-Marvin-Gaye-family-in-'Blurred-Lines'-fight) and the dissenting comments are sure to fuel a fire: > [@](#): > > A federal appeals court on Wednesday upheld a copyright infringement verdict against Robin Thicke and Pharrell Williams over the 2013 hit song “Blurred Lines.” > > In a split decision from a three-judge panel, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals awarded $5.3 million to the family of Marvin Gaye, who said “Blurred Lines” is illegally copied from the late soul singer’s “Got to Give it Up.” > > Two judges rejected the defense’s request to overturn a jury verdict or order a new trial, saying that Gaye’s copyright on the song is entitled to broad protection. They accepted a trial court judge’s instructing the jury to decide based only on the sheet music to the songs, and not the recordings. > > Judge Jacqueline Nguyen offered a harsh dissent, saying that the songs resemble each other only in style not substance and that the decision was detrimental to the future of artists and creativity. > > “The majority allows the Gayes to accomplish what no one has before: copyright a musical style,” Nguyen wrote. “‘Blurred Lines’ and ‘Got to Give It Up’ are not objectively similar. They differ in melody, harmony, and rhythm. Yet by refusing to compare the two works, the majority establishes a dangerous precedent that strikes a devastating blow to future musicians and composers everywhere.” ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robin-thicke-ordered-to-pay-7m-for-blurred-lines-plagiarism/714732/115 "2018-03-21T22:26:03Z")
That’s the wrong decision and Nguyen is correct. Awful precedent. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robin-thicke-ordered-to-pay-7m-for-blurred-lines-plagiarism/714732/116 "2018-03-22T00:14:09Z")
Had no idea this was up for appeal. As before, awful ruling IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robin-thicke-ordered-to-pay-7m-for-blurred-lines-plagiarism/714732/117 "2018-04-10T15:39:13Z")
I just had this thread (and court case) in mind the other day. I woke up with a melody line (a song refrain) in my head and couldn’t place it. While trying, I conjured up a _different_ song with basically the _same_ melodic refrain, which happened to be [Pete Townsend’s “Let My Love Open the Door”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FZbcoWrUsw). Eventually I remembered enough lyrics to look up the other song[spoiler] [ELO’s “Can’t Get it Out of My Head”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdRJ3zSZ6vA)… the refrain part from both songs [/spoiler] Anyway, yeah, people come up with the same lines sometimes. It really doesn’t make it plaigiarism. A snippet of sound that short and basic is going to occur in more than one composition. And I agree with those who say this was a bad ruling. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robin-thicke-ordered-to-pay-7m-for-blurred-lines-plagiarism/714732/118 "2018-04-10T22:07:02Z")
The guy who wrote the theme music for _Jeopardy!_ is hearing footsteps belonging to the guy who wrote _”I’m a Little Teapot”_. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robin-thicke-ordered-to-pay-7m-for-blurred-lines-plagiarism/714732/119 "2018-04-10T22:36:01Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > The guy who wrote the theme music for _Jeopardy!_ is hearing footsteps belonging to the guy who wrote _”I’m a Little Teapot”_. Took me a moment. Yeah, the last four measures, dead on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/robin-thicke-ordered-to-pay-7m-for-blurred-lines-plagiarism/714732.md?page=5)