# Rock or pop songs in minor keys **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 20, 2013, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-or-pop-songs-in-minor-keys/656217 "2013-04-20T14:27:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![EmilyG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emilyg/32/364_2.png) [@EmilyG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmilyG)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-or-pop-songs-in-minor-keys/656217/41 "2013-04-25T00:22:38Z")
When I first got into music, I didn’t understand about different “keys”. It took me a while, but I did figure it out by myself eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-or-pop-songs-in-minor-keys/656217/42 "2013-04-25T04:54:37Z")
After completing the circle of 5ths and 4ths assignment, we were supposed to have memorized the key signatures for all major and minor keys. We each had to go to the front of the room and were quizzed individually on a couple key sigs. IIRC, I was good up to 3 or 4 flats or sharps. My partner in crime in that class and I set up a way we could signal to each other the key sigs. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-or-pop-songs-in-minor-keys/656217/43 "2013-04-25T05:01:48Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > Of course, we all know that [D Minor](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7vk5keNbRc) is the saddest of all keys… I first saw that movie in a theater, with several hundred other people who didn’t know about the “choking on vomit” scene either. 😛 I never heard an audience howl that loud until I saw “About Schmidt” on opening weekend, and we didn’t know about the nude scene in it either. The nude scene featuring one Kathy Bates. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-or-pop-songs-in-minor-keys/656217/44 "2013-04-25T05:03:25Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > After completing the circle of 5ths and 4ths assignment, we were supposed to have memorized the key signatures for all major and minor keys. We each had to go to the front of the room and were quizzed individually on a couple key sigs. IIRC, I was good up to 3 or 4 flats or sharps. My partner in crime in that class and I set up a way we could signal to each other the key sigs. If any composer uses 5 or more flats or sharps, they’re not a composer – they’re a sadist. No, I don’t care what their justification is. Or maybe this should be in the “overly judgmental opinions” thead ;). ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-or-pop-songs-in-minor-keys/656217/45 "2013-04-25T05:28:06Z")
_Things I’d Like To Say_, New Colony Six. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-or-pop-songs-in-minor-keys/656217/46 "2013-04-25T06:41:54Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > If any composer uses 5 or more flats or sharps, they’re not a composer – they’re a sadist. No, I don’t care what their justification is. I agree. The keys of Cb, B#, E#, and Fb should be outlawed. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-or-pop-songs-in-minor-keys/656217/47 "2013-04-25T11:12:45Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > I agree. The keys of Cb, B#, E#, and Fb should be outlawed. I saw what you did there. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-or-pop-songs-in-minor-keys/656217/48 "2013-04-25T11:33:43Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > I saw what you did there. 😉 I don’t, other than the fact that he used the only consecutive note pairs whose respective sharp/flats aren’t enharmonic. 😕 ETA: And they have double sharps/flats I guess (except Cb), which are truly the devil’s work. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/le_ministre_de_l_au-dela/32/12181_2.png) [@Le\_Ministre\_de\_l\_au-dela](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Ministre_de_l_au-dela)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-or-pop-songs-in-minor-keys/656217/49 "2013-04-25T11:37:17Z")
[Bus Stop](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=It75wQ0JypA) - The Hollies. [House of the Rising Sun](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwAw9ThDQmk) - The Animals ---
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-or-pop-songs-in-minor-keys/656217/50 "2013-04-25T12:16:45Z")
Runaway by Del Shannon. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-or-pop-songs-in-minor-keys/656217/51 "2013-04-25T14:16:47Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > I don’t, other than the fact that he used the only consecutive note pairs whose respective sharp/flats aren’t enharmonic. 😕 Those keys are enharmonic with B, C, and F, but some of them do exist. For example, here’s a list of songs in [C-flat major](http://www.cisdur.de/e_cesdur.html). Apparently, a lot of harp music is written in C-flat major, too, as it’s the native tuning for a concert harp. I don’t play harp, but this is what I’ve read. B-sharp major is a bit more [theoretical](http://www.cisdur.de/e_hisdur.html) and sadistic. I’m not sure what I would do if I ever saw that notated. ---
**Author:** ![JohnGalt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johngalt/32/184_2.png) [@JohnGalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnGalt)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-or-pop-songs-in-minor-keys/656217/52 "2013-04-25T14:47:50Z")
How about _Roundabout_ by Yes. It’s in a minor key mostly through the song, but the most jarring part is the end of the coda: after the "da da da da daaaa da da"s all get sung, the final chord is an emphatic major chord. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-or-pop-songs-in-minor-keys/656217/53 "2013-04-25T15:35:57Z")
That little trick on the final chord of “Roundabout” harks back to Elizabethan or early Baroque music, when it was the usual practice to end a minor-key composition on its parallel major chord. I always took it as a deliberate reference to early music, especially as it occurs in the context of Howe’s classical-style guitar work in that song. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-or-pop-songs-in-minor-keys/656217/54 "2013-04-25T15:50:47Z")
It’s called the [Picardy third.](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picardy_third) I most often hear it as a ending on the tonic, but major instead of minor. So, if the song is in A minor, it ends on the A major. I used to hear it quite a bit in Catholic mass when the music setting is of the modal pipe organ variety. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-or-pop-songs-in-minor-keys/656217/55 "2013-04-25T15:53:13Z")
I was also going to say that I swear there’s a Beatles song that does this and, from Googling, it looks like it’s mentioned the Wikipedia article: “And I Love Her.” Oh, and the term I should have used is “parallel major” in my first post, but I see **Johanna** covered that. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2013, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-or-pop-songs-in-minor-keys/656217/56 "2013-04-25T23:08:24Z")
Right; on the subject of the relationship of major and minor keys, \*parallel \*means keeping the same tonic keynote, with the key signature shifted to change e.g. A minor into A major (add 3 sharps or delete 3 flats). The other kind is relative, meaning keep the same key signature and have a different keynote, e.g. the relative minor of A major is F# minor (both have 3 sharps), while the relative major of A minor is C major (both have no flats or sharps). “Magnetic Rag” by Scott Joplin is in B-flat major for its beginning and end strains. The second strain goes into the relative minor, G minor (both have 2 flats). The 4th strain goes into the parallel B-flat minor (with 5 flats). It’s the one piece that comes to mind that plays with both kinds of related minor keys. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-or-pop-songs-in-minor-keys/656217/57 "2013-04-26T02:09:23Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Those keys are enharmonic with B, C, and F, but some of them do exist. For example, here’s a list of songs in [C-flat major](http://www.cisdur.de/e_cesdur.html). Apparently, a lot of harp music is written in C-flat major, too, as it’s the native tuning for a concert harp. I don’t play harp, but this is what I’ve read. > > B-sharp major is a bit more [theoretical](http://www.cisdur.de/e_hisdur.html) and sadistic. I’m not sure what I would do if I ever saw that notated. I probably wasn’t clear. I meant the respective sharps/flats aren’t enharmonic with each other, that is Cb =/= B#, rather Cb=B and B#=C, same with Fb=E and E#=F, those are the only “note pairs” where a sharp isn’t enharmonic with a flat, but rather with a natural and vice versa. And I know that things are written in Cb, it’s still evil. I remember in music theory we once were given something in one of the double-sharp keys (that is, a key with double sharps, not a key like Bx) just for the lulz, but I can’t remember what it was. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-or-pop-songs-in-minor-keys/656217/58 "2013-04-26T04:26:02Z")
Here you go: [theoretical keys.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theoretical_key) That covers keys with double sharps and double flats. According to [this Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-sharp_major), at least one piece, the ending of _A World Requiem_ by John Foulds is actually notated in G# major with the double sharp. I can neither confirm or deny. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2013, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-or-pop-songs-in-minor-keys/656217/59 "2013-04-26T05:13:08Z")
Or you could always just use [Faerie’s Aire and Death Waltz](http://socks-studio.com/2012/05/19/the-unplayable-score-faeries-aire-and-death-waltz-john-stump/). Okay, fine, it doesn’t have double accidentals, but how often do you get to post that thing? ---
**Author:** ![Dan3499](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8edcca/32.png) [@Dan3499](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dan3499)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2015, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-or-pop-songs-in-minor-keys/656217/60 "2015-07-27T12:23:08Z")
“Pick Up The Pieces” by AWB is in F Minor and a toe tapper. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-or-pop-songs-in-minor-keys/656217.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-or-pop-songs-in-minor-keys/656217.md?page=4)