# Rock, paper, scissors - dynamite? bird? Spock? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 10, 2002, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-paper-scissors-dynamite-bird-spock/141800 "2002-12-10T17:50:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![SC\_Wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@SC\_Wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SC_Wolf)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-paper-scissors-dynamite-bird-spock/141800/21 "2002-12-11T01:57:49Z")
In response to the person who said Rock Paper Scissors is the height of boredom, perhaps by itself, it is. Which is why [modern video game design](http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_rps.htm) adds all sorts of fancy graphics and bells and whistles to the concept. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-paper-scissors-dynamite-bird-spock/141800/22 "2002-12-11T02:06:08Z")
Rock Paper Scissors is an incredible mind game. If you don’t believe me play me sometime. It’s about recognizing your opponents level of deception and then moving one layer of deception ahead when he catches on (if he catches on). Another way to make the game REALLY fun is to bet on it. But instead of an even payout, make it $10 if you win with rock, 3 with scissors, and 1 with paper. Then the mind-fuck revolves around the desire to throw rock. ---
**Author:** ![knock\_knock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/22d042/32.png) [@knock\_knock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/knock_knock)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-paper-scissors-dynamite-bird-spock/141800/23 "2002-12-11T02:14:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cliffy \* > \*\*We used to use dynamite on the playground sometimes when I was a kid; it was a fist with your thumb sticking up (to represent the fuse). It beat paper (the fuse ignited the paper) and rock (it blew up rock), but scissors could cut the paper. (Of course, if any of us were smart enough to realize it, this was the ideal throw, since unlike the others it won more than it lost. This was important back then because the winner got free hits.) > > There were a few others we used as well which I can’t remember. > > –Cliffy \*\* If many of the kids you played with weren’t smart enough to realize the assymmetry, then it would be smart to play dynamite most of the time. Regardless of what anyone else realized, it would be smart to never play paper, since paper is dominated by dynamite. Both paper & dynamite beat rock & lose to scissors, but dynamite beats paper. If everyone realized this, then you could’ve just changed your game to “rock, dynamite, scissors.” ---
**Author:** ![Yersinia\_Pestis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ccd318/32.png) [@Yersinia\_Pestis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yersinia_Pestis)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-paper-scissors-dynamite-bird-spock/141800/24 "2002-12-11T03:27:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > \*\*At least I can guess what “bird” is, even if that one is more often flipped than thrown. I’d really like to know what “God” is, though. \*\* Couldn’t “God” be the pointing-finger gesture from the “Creation of Adam” scene on the Sistine Chapel ceiling? [sub]assuming there is a “god” gesture…[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![SC\_Wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@SC\_Wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SC_Wolf)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-paper-scissors-dynamite-bird-spock/141800/25 "2002-12-11T04:13:08Z")
Maybe I’m just wierd like that, but I always think of that particular image as “Hey Adam, pull my finger.” ---
**Author:** ![Houlihan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Houlihan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Houlihan)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-paper-scissors-dynamite-bird-spock/141800/26 "2002-12-11T12:44:05Z")
This site: [http://www.gogomag.com/rsp/](http://www.gogomag.com/rsp/) Adds “Bomb” “Bird” “Water” and “Chopper” throws to the mix. Looks pretty stupid. I.e. “Bird flys away from scissors” and “Paper blinds driver of chopper”… ---
**Author:** ![SC\_Wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@SC\_Wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SC_Wolf)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-paper-scissors-dynamite-bird-spock/141800/27 "2002-12-11T13:15:01Z")
Is it just me, or is “Chopper” from that site just a poorly disguised surfer’s “hang loose”? ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-paper-scissors-dynamite-bird-spock/141800/28 "2002-12-11T14:44:17Z")
Now [THIS](http://www.ucomics.com/inthebleachers/) might help it evolve into a spectator sport. ---
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-paper-scissors-dynamite-bird-spock/141800/29 "2002-12-11T14:54:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KidCharlemagne \* > \*\*Rock Paper Scissors is an incredible mind game. If you don’t believe me play me sometime. It’s about recognizing your opponents level of deception and then moving one layer of deception ahead when he catches on (if he catches on). Another way to make the game REALLY fun is to bet on it. But instead of an even payout, make it $10 if you win with rock, 3 with scissors, and 1 with paper. Then the mind-fuck revolves around the desire to throw rock. \*\* Anyone with more game-theory training than I want to verify? Minimax strategy on standard RPS is obviously to randomly pick your throw at 1/3 for each option; with the weighted payouts above, my calculations show that the minimax strategy is 3/14 rock, 10/14 paper, 1/14 scissors. (As a symmetric game, expected payout will be $0 against any opposing strategy.) ---
**Author:** ![SC\_Wolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@SC\_Wolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SC_Wolf)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2002, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-paper-scissors-dynamite-bird-spock/141800/30 "2002-12-11T22:03:38Z")
The game is symetric. The metagame is not. ---
**Author:** ![Daerlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Daerlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daerlyn)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-paper-scissors-dynamite-bird-spock/141800/31 "2002-12-12T01:37:09Z")
Actually, RPS is used for testing in live-action RPG’s by the company **White Wolf**. The ‘bomb’ (rock with thumb extended) is allowed when the player throwing it has a particular set of powers available to him, and is beaten by scissors, but will beat rock and paper. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-paper-scissors-dynamite-bird-spock/141800/32 "2002-12-12T03:01:00Z")
Pencil - only index finger extended, like half of “scissors” (beats paper and water) Water - flat hand (“paper”) rippling to signify waves (beats rock and scissors) At one point I had rules for these others, but I’ve forgotten them… Dynamite - thumb extended up, fingers closed Bunny - index and middle fingers extended up, other fingers closed (i.e. “peace” or “victory”) Cannon - thumb extended to one side, fingers closed (dynamite rotated 90 degrees around the axis formed by your arm) Telephone - thumb and pinky extended, other fingers closed (i.e. “gnarly, dude”) ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-paper-scissors-dynamite-bird-spock/141800/33 "2002-12-12T12:49:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Daerlyn \* > \*\*Actually, RPS is used for testing in live-action RPG’s by the company **White Wolf**. The ‘bomb’ (rock with thumb extended) is allowed when the player throwing it has a particular set of powers available to him, and is beaten by scissors, but will beat rock and paper. \*\* RPS is the foundation of fighting games (like Virtua Fighter) and the military units in real-time strategy games. Here is an interesting read. Actually the whole site is a great read. Check out the article on “Yomi Layers” about levels of deception in RPS. [http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature\_rps.htm](http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_rps.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-paper-scissors-dynamite-bird-spock/141800/34 "2002-12-12T15:45:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KidCharlemagne \* > \*\*I believe that page was created by one of the Tiltboys. > > [http://www.tiltboys.com/](http://www.tiltboys.com/) > > I know one of them programmed the Roshambot: > > [http://chappie.stanford.edu/~perry/roshambo/](http://chappie.stanford.edu/~perry/roshambo/) > > Good luck trying to beat it. > > Read their Vegas Trip reports; they are hilarious. \*\* I played their programme 100 times: > [@](#): > > Results so far > You have won 33, lost 32, and tied 35 games > > Statistics for 100 games > winning percentage\*: 1.00% > won : 33.00% > lost: 32.00% > tied: 35.00% > > - winning percentage is (wins - losses) / total games ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-paper-scissors-dynamite-bird-spock/141800/35 "2002-12-12T15:56:32Z")
**Aro** Did you choose randomnly? If not, you must have done some pretty mean thinking about it’s understanding of your level of deception and then trumping it. Someone just casually playing it wouldn’t win. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-paper-scissors-dynamite-bird-spock/141800/36 "2002-12-12T15:58:23Z")
I should add that I can win until the games goes randomn which it will do after it assumes you have figured out it’s algorithms. ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-paper-scissors-dynamite-bird-spock/141800/37 "2002-12-12T16:04:49Z")
From that Tiltboys page (Classic RPS interchange): Rafe: I’m going rock. Victim: Okay, then I’m going paper. Rafe: But you know that I wouldn’t tell you the truth. Victim: You might if you think I won’t believe you. Rafe: But I know you will compensate for that. Victim: Just go! (exasperated at Rafe’s continued scrutiny for tells) Rafe: 1-2-3-(went rock) Victim: (went scissors) Rafe: (pocketing bet) You over-compensated. ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-paper-scissors-dynamite-bird-spock/141800/38 "2002-12-12T16:06:59Z")
Yeah, hardly even looking, as I am in work. Just clicked whatever came to mind. I did have a run at the start of about 6-7 losses where I picked ‘stone’ each time, and the program picked ‘paper’ to counter each time. But when I mixed it up (my chioice) , it evened out in the long run. Does it ‘cheat’ by analysiing patterns in your play? Maybe the only way to beat it is to _not_ think about what you are playing 😃 ---
**Author:** ![KidCharlemagne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ed8c4c/32.png) [@KidCharlemagne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KidCharlemagne)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-paper-scissors-dynamite-bird-spock/141800/39 "2002-12-12T16:19:23Z")
I just played and had 2 losses in 29 games. Slightly less than half were ties and the rest were wins. I always through rock first and take guesses at how it assumes the average level of deception would be and then one up it for about 3 throws when I figured it learns my game and then up it again. What’s really fun is when you get into a series of ties because the choice of throws for the opponent becomes more obvious and therefore the level of deception necessary to win becomes upped again. The RPS bot that was first created was called “Iocaine Powder” and was made by some guys at MIT. It was the winner in roshambot competitions for years. Here is a great explanation of how it works: [http://www.ofb.net/~egnor/iocaine.html](http://www.ofb.net/~egnor/iocaine.html) ---
**Author:** ![Lazlo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lazlo/32/9678_2.png) [@Lazlo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lazlo)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2002, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-paper-scissors-dynamite-bird-spock/141800/40 "2002-12-12T18:38:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KidCharlemagne \* > \*\*I should add that I can win until the games goes randomn which it will do after it assumes you have figured out it’s algorithms. \*\* Does it ask you if you’ve looked when it thinks you figured it out? I won about 15 in a row and it said, “You’ve been circled. Did you look?” After that, it seemed random. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-paper-scissors-dynamite-bird-spock/141800.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-paper-scissors-dynamite-bird-spock/141800.md?page=3)