# Rock songs and guitar solos in a MAJOR key **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 10, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-songs-and-guitar-solos-in-a-major-key/599129 "2011-10-10T00:06:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-songs-and-guitar-solos-in-a-major-key/599129/21 "2011-10-14T03:26:11Z")
> [@I-VI-ii-V](#): > > A dominant 7 chord is spelled 1 - b3 - 5 - b7. Introducing the designation m7 confuses what the chord is. C7 (a dominant C chord) is NOT the same thing as a Cm7 (C minor 7), for example. Nobody is going to argue that a C7 is not the same as a Cm7. I was assuming that when **Jaledin** talked about the m7, he was simply talking about the minor seventh interval from the tonic of the chord, not the naming convention for the chord itself. A dominant seventh chord _is_ a major triad with an m7 slapped on top of it. I don’t really see any problem with his terminology. He’s using it as you defined it in the first definition you gave for an m7. ---
**Author:** ![Jaledin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jaledin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaledin)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-songs-and-guitar-solos-in-a-major-key/599129/22 "2011-10-14T03:32:22Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Ah, now it’s _my_ turn to point out a typo or brain fart. 🙂 A dominant 7 chord is spelled 1 - 3 - 5 -b7. Yeah, that’s true. But if it doesn’t have a dominant function, in functional harmony, I’d call it a major triad with a m7 added. Am I wrong – you can probably play rings around me, and it’s been a long time since I studied theory except for browsing through books looking for ideas? I’m obsessively wedded to the idea of a dom7 chord playing the resolving role of a dominant, which clearly it does not in your average blues tune, except when turning around to top of form. A "dom"7 chord forms the basis of its own tonality, which can’t really be explained in major/minor functional harmony, IMO. Don’t mean to be a pisser, just something I’ve always had in the back of the mind. Think Bird on “Blues For Alice” – IIRC – which uses a major chord as the tonic, with maj7 added as well, but it’s still (kind of) a blues. ---
**Author:** ![I-VI-ii-V](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c89c15/32.png) [@I-VI-ii-V](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I-VI-ii-V)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-songs-and-guitar-solos-in-a-major-key/599129/23 "2011-10-14T04:40:26Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Ah, now it’s _my_ turn to point out a typo or brain fart. 🙂 A dominant 7 chord is spelled 1 - 3 - 5 -b7. Whoops, had minor on the brain…and I even said it’s not the same thing, and then typed THE SAME THING! Thanks for the catch. ---
**Author:** ![I-VI-ii-V](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c89c15/32.png) [@I-VI-ii-V](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I-VI-ii-V)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-songs-and-guitar-solos-in-a-major-key/599129/24 "2011-10-14T04:48:40Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Nobody is going to argue that a C7 is not the same as a Cm7. I was assuming that when **Jaledin** talked about the m7, he was simply talking about the minor seventh interval from the tonic of the chord, not the naming convention for the chord itself. A dominant seventh chord _is_ a major triad with an m7 slapped on top of it. I don’t really see any problem with his terminology. He’s using it as you defined it in the first definition you gave for an m7. I understand what he and you are saying. My thing is the semantics in how he used it. He is using “m7” as a scale degree, whereas I use b7 to identify the scale degree of the note in the chord and m7 to name the interval. Each to his own. ---
**Author:** ![I-VI-ii-V](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c89c15/32.png) [@I-VI-ii-V](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I-VI-ii-V)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-songs-and-guitar-solos-in-a-major-key/599129/25 "2011-10-14T05:09:22Z")
Missed the edit window… One reason I use that naming convention is to not confuse my students. I don’t want them to think that a Cm7 is a C with [what you are calling] a m7 or C7 has a M7 in it. You guys get it, but to make it crystal clear to them, I use scale degrees with flats and sharps rather than m and M. It’s a system that works well for beginning musicians. It also adds consistency when naming chords with notes such as b5s, b9s, #9s, etc. ---
**Author:** ![I-VI-ii-V](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c89c15/32.png) [@I-VI-ii-V](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I-VI-ii-V)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-songs-and-guitar-solos-in-a-major-key/599129/26 "2011-10-14T05:16:09Z")
> [@Jaledin](#): > > Obviously, you can have a “tonality” sort of on a #9, 7 chord – think “Lonely Avenue,” by Doc Pomus, but the sharp nine exists together with the plain, major third. That’s why it’s not called a flat third, but a raised nine. Richard Tee, the great pianist, did that a lot, especially in his gospel-flavored originals, and loads of bebop pianists used both the b9 and the #9 on a true V7 chord as tensions to get back to the I in major back in the 1940s. E7#9 = Purple Haze chord 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![I-VI-ii-V](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c89c15/32.png) [@I-VI-ii-V](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I-VI-ii-V)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-songs-and-guitar-solos-in-a-major-key/599129/27 "2011-10-14T05:34:08Z")
> [@Jaledin](#): > > It makes more sense in a minor key, which is where you get the harmonic minor scale – to give the V7 a leading tone to get back to the i. I’m not sure what you mean here. If you build chords diatonically based on the harmonic minor scale (as opposed to the natural minor scale), the raised seventh is what makes the five chord a V7 rather than a v7 - it effects the **third**. For instance, in the key of A minor, using the natural minor scale would give you the notes A - B - C - D - E - F - G - A. The five chord would be E - G - B - D = Em7. By using the harmonic minor scale A - B - C - D - E - F - G# - A, the five chord would be E7 (E - G# - B - D). This resolves better to an Am7 (using the natural minor scale) than to a AmMaj7 (using the harmonic minor scale). Is this what you were getting at? Any typos to catch, **pulykamell**? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-songs-and-guitar-solos-in-a-major-key/599129/28 "2011-10-14T14:05:55Z")
> [@I-VI-ii-V](#): > > Missed the edit window… > One reason I use that naming convention is to not confuse my students. I don’t want them to think that a Cm7 is a C with [what you are calling] a m7 or C7 has a M7 in it. You guys get it, but to make it crystal clear to them, I use scale degrees with flats and sharps rather than m and M. It’s a system that works well for beginning musicians. It also adds consistency when naming chords with notes such as b5s, b9s, #9s, etc. Oh, I’m sure your students are smart enough. After all, you don’t seem to be worried that they will think Cb7 means C with a flatted seventh, do you? 😉 (Personally, I do usually refer to scale tones using your b/# convention rather than specifying intervals as perfect, major, minor, augmented, or diminished.) And, no typos on your part to report, but I did misspell “dyslexia” in my post above. ---
**Author:** ![I-VI-ii-V](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c89c15/32.png) [@I-VI-ii-V](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I-VI-ii-V)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-songs-and-guitar-solos-in-a-major-key/599129/29 "2011-10-14T18:31:24Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Oh, I’m sure your students are smart enough. After all, you don’t seem to be worried that they will think Cb7 means C with a flatted seventh, do you? 😉 > > (Personally, I do usually refer to scale tones using your b/# convention rather than specifying intervals as perfect, major, minor, augmented, or diminished.) > > And, no typos on your part to report, but I did misspell “dyslexia” in my post above. Unfortunately I teach at a special needs high school so I need to make everything as non-confusing as possible. While working with a student today, I noticed another reason why I use this method - I use it when teaching different scales. It makes sense to use the same system for building chords. HOWEVER, you and **Jaledin** have made me think about this, and I will probably incorporate that notation into my lessons by saying “some people will refer to these scale degrees using m, M, etc”, much like when I teach a m7b5 chord (“it is also referred to as a half-diminished chord and uses this symbol Ø, but some people don’t like to call it that because it doesn’t function as a diminished chord, blah blah blah…” ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-songs-and-guitar-solos-in-a-major-key/599129/30 "2011-10-14T18:36:23Z")
Eric Johnson - [Cliffs of Dover](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnqpOFcBiMM) G Major, I believe. ---
**Author:** ![Jaledin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jaledin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaledin)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-songs-and-guitar-solos-in-a-major-key/599129/31 "2011-10-15T20:41:14Z")
> [@I-VI-ii-V](#): > > I’m not sure what you mean here. If you build chords diatonically based on the harmonic minor scale (as opposed to the natural minor scale), the raised seventh is what makes the five chord a V7 rather than a v7 - it effects the **third**. For instance, in the key of A minor, using the natural minor scale would give you the notes A - B - C - D - E - F - G - A. The five chord would be E - G - B - D = Em7. By using the harmonic minor scale A - B - C - D - E - F - G# - A, the five chord would be E7 (E - G# - B - D). This resolves better to an Am7 (using the natural minor scale) than to a AmMaj7 (using the harmonic minor scale). Is this what you were getting at? Any typos to catch, **pulykamell**? 😉 Of course you’re right – the leading tone back to the i tonic. In the model key of Cm, that’s be the B natural, the leading tone. I think I prefer saying b7 than m7 too – didn’t think it would make a difference, but I see that could be confusing and is probably a kind of odd convention, the way I said it. I do seem to recall, though, that only thirds and minor degrees have the “right” to be called major or minor, but I haven’t studied theory for a while in any kind of academic way. ---
**Author:** ![zombywoof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/9e8a1a/32.png) [@zombywoof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zombywoof)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-songs-and-guitar-solos-in-a-major-key/599129/32 "2011-10-15T22:23:14Z")
> [@Jaledin](#): > > I do seem to recall, though, that only thirds and minor degrees have the “right” to be called major or minor, but I haven’t studied theory for a while in any kind of academic way. Well, within the octave, seconds, thirds, sixths and sevenths can all come in major or minor flavors, and would be correctly referred to as such…under some circumstances there would be another (enharmonic) name that would more correct (e.g. diminished seventh vs. major sixth). ---
**Author:** ![zombywoof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/9e8a1a/32.png) [@zombywoof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zombywoof)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2011, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-songs-and-guitar-solos-in-a-major-key/599129/33 "2011-10-15T22:28:59Z")
multiple post ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-songs-and-guitar-solos-in-a-major-key/599129/34 "2011-10-16T00:03:35Z")
Fly By Night, by Rush, is notably majorish – even the solo, except for a couple of blue notes. Also Child of the Moon, by the Stones. Really, a lot of songs in D. They tend to have a somewhat folky feel, rather than being straight-up rock. New Test Leper by REM is another example. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-songs-and-guitar-solos-in-a-major-key/599129/35 "2011-10-16T00:11:15Z")
A more rockin’ example by REM that’s mostly really major is What’s the Frequency Kenneth. Or, any of the Ramones songs that partly inspired it. ---
**Author:** ![Jaledin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jaledin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaledin)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-songs-and-guitar-solos-in-a-major-key/599129/36 "2011-10-16T01:33:25Z")
> [@zombywoof](#): > > Well, within the octave, seconds, thirds, sixths and sevenths can all come in major or minor flavors, and would be correctly referred to as such…under some circumstances there would be another (enharmonic) name that would more correct (e.g. diminished seventh vs. major sixth). Didn’t know that. I know intervals can be described willy-nilly, and who hasn’t heard of a major 6th interval? I guess my information might be outdated already (I’m 35, but only started getting serious [again] at piano in 2006 or so, after a childhood dominated by [by choice – I wanted to get that badass classical and ragtime down] by some serious teachers and a few counterpoint/theory classes [never my strong suit until I started with jazz and hit the analysis pipe pretty hard]). ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-songs-and-guitar-solos-in-a-major-key/599129/37 "2011-10-16T21:25:53Z")
You’re probably thinking of the major and minor third defining whether a chord has major or minor tonality in tertian harmony (that is, harmony that is based on thirds, rather than fourth or fifths.) ---
**Author:** ![Jaledin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Jaledin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jaledin)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-songs-and-guitar-solos-in-a-major-key/599129/38 "2011-10-16T21:33:28Z")
Maybe. You wouldn’t call a fourth a major or minor, though, or even a second, right? Raised or Lowered is the way I picked it up for a second interval. I swear to Christ I’m not making it up! I heard it somewhere. !!! ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-songs-and-guitar-solos-in-a-major-key/599129/39 "2011-10-16T21:42:45Z")
> [@Jaledin](#): > > Maybe. You wouldn’t call a fourth a major or minor, though, or even a second, right? Raised or Lowered is the way I picked it up for a second interval. I swear to Christ I’m not making it up! I heard it somewhere. !!! “Major” and “minor” just mean small and big in this context. It is used in reference to the second, the third, the sixth, and the seventh. So, yes, there is a “minor second” and a “major second.” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-songs-and-guitar-solos-in-a-major-key/599129/40 "2011-10-16T21:45:51Z")
[Here’s a chart of the intervals](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/Intervals.png) via Wikipedia. TT=tri-tone, aka “augmented fourth” or “diminished fifth,” depending on context. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-songs-and-guitar-solos-in-a-major-key/599129.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-songs-and-guitar-solos-in-a-major-key/599129.md?page=3)