# Rock Star Stops Concert To Make A Point **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 3, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956 "2014-06-03T20:09:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/41 "2014-06-04T21:33:21Z")
I’ll concede that if a girl is being fingered against her will, then crime committed, creeps identified, protest justified. I just doubt that’s what was going on on. No cite for the singer doing this spiel many times before, just what I’ve heard. So dismiss it if you like. Even if it were the first time, the point remains. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/42 "2014-06-04T21:41:43Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > No cite for the singer doing this spiel many times before, just what I’ve heard. So dismiss it if you like. Even if it were the first time, the point remains. …if it was the only time he’s done it, then obviously the point doesn’t remain. He gets off on being a hero this one time he has ever done it? ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/43 "2014-06-04T21:43:40Z")
Not that point. The point made in everything before that last sentence in the post. My bad on the quick response. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/44 "2014-06-04T21:51:38Z")
You know, if the guy does this at many shows, there are actually a couple of potential reasons. ‘He’s faking it and wants to look like a hero’ is only one of them. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/45 "2014-06-04T21:51:54Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > It’s amusing how much people can dissect the actions, intentions, and explicit or implicit permission involved with something as inherently reckless as crowd surfing. > > If a girl, underage or not, jumps on top of a crowd of young, excited, possibly drunk, mostly young men, isn’t it a given that someone will touch her in a naughty place? Being in physical contact with the crowd is what it’s all about – being held aloft and moved around by the many hands, willing or not. Do people really think they can toss their bodies on top of a crowd and demand that no one touch them except in the designated safe areas? That smacks of an immature attitude of “I want to do what I want without any consequences.” > > I’m not saying that excuses sexual assault, but are we really discussing _that_ or someone innocently, or even not so innocently, making contact with a girl’s breast, ass, or groin? My experience at concerts suggests the latter, and if that’s your definition of sexual assault then we need to light a lot more bonfires to burn the child molesters. (How do we know the alleged pedophile men weren’t minors themselves? Complicates matters a bit.) There seems to be a lot of high and mighty claims that any physical contact with a girl – and god help us, an underage girl – amounts to sexual assault unless she gave you written permission to do so. If I’m standing in a crowd and a girl comes surfing overhead, do I have to ask to see her driver’s license or do I just let her drop to the ground so I’m not called out as a child molester? I’m not going to intentionally grab a boobie or yank her jeans down to go all molesty on her, but I also won’t feel like a lowlife creep if I happen to touch her _there._ Now if she were just enjoying the show and I walked up and grabbed her crotch, then yes, I’d be a criminal creep. > > But if the girl was underage, which we have absolutely no evidence of, then she can’t give permission to be touched sexually. That would seem to incriminate the touchers even if she was foolhardy enough to submit her body to the crowd, right? So what’s the solution? Ban underage girls? Make them wear a t-shirt with their age prominently displayed? If my son were old enough to attend a Staind concert, I’d have to warn him that he should not make any contact with a female there lest he be accused of molestation. > > And I really doubt the girl was shocked and appalled at having strangers touch her. This discussion seems to assume that an innocent young nun wandered away from the convent and ended up on top of an audience at a Staind concert. Doubt it. Would that make it okay for an adult to take advantage of her sexually, by having intercourse with a minor, for instance? No way. But if she throws herself on top of the crowd, it seems like a huge overreaction to call people pedophiles because they touch her. > > I think the singer gets off on being the big hero every time he does this. So, she was asking for it? ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/46 "2014-06-04T21:53:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Other people’s experience suggests the former. Does that count for anything? Sure it does, but we’re getting really far afield from what happens in that video. Have girls been molested or assaulted at concerts? Oh yes, I’m sure there’s plenty of evidence for that. But it sounds like we’re ready to launch a witch hunt for all the molesters in concert crowds. A huge leap from what I still contend is a pompous singer grandstanding. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/47 "2014-06-04T21:55:43Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > So, she was asking for it? Yes, yes indeed. You have distilled my thoughts in a witty yet insightful summary.:rolleyes: Thank you for your assistance. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/48 "2014-06-04T22:00:08Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > But it sounds like we’re ready to launch a witch hunt for all the molesters in concert crowds. No, it really doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/49 "2014-06-04T22:03:59Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > No, it really doesn’t. Okay, point taken. It doesn’t sound like WE are ready to launch a witch hunt. But Mr. Outraged Singer sure seems ready. ---
**Author:** ![MoonMoon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moonmoon/32/2959_2.png) [@MoonMoon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MoonMoon)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/50 "2014-06-04T22:08:02Z")
When you don’t realize that groping is not the accidental brushing or touching of a body part, you should probably thank your lucky stars. This is precisely the kind of disconnect that #yesallwomen was trying to illustrate. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/51 "2014-06-04T22:38:07Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > Okay, point taken. It doesn’t sound like WE are ready to launch a witch hunt. But Mr. Outraged Singer sure seems ready. This is the singer of _Staind_. The guy can’t even spell. He may not be so nuanced in his thinking. Seriously, though, there are two different debates here that are somehow merging into one Cronenbergesque horror. 1. What is groping? 2. Should performers incite their audiences to violence? The answer to one does not affect the other. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 4, 2014, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/52 "2014-06-04T23:32:26Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > It’s amusing how much people can dissect the actions, intentions, and explicit or implicit permission involved with something as inherently reckless as crowd surfing. > > If a girl, underage or not, jumps on top of a crowd of young, excited, possibly drunk, mostly young men, isn’t it a given that someone will touch her in a naughty place? Being in physical contact with the crowd is what it’s all about – being held aloft and moved around by the many hands, willing or not. Do people really think they can toss their bodies on top of a crowd and demand that no one touch them except in the designated safe areas? That smacks of an immature attitude of “I want to do what I want without any consequences.” I know almost nothing about Aaron Lewis or Staind, but [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staind) tells me the band has been performing for 20 years. Lewis has had the chance to observe audience behavior at a whole lot of rock concerts. The only reason we know about this incident is because he – not the girl – spoke out about it. We don’t know what the crowd-surfing girl was thinking, but we do know that whatever happened looked bad enough that it upset a man who must have a good idea of what is and isn’t typical behavior in that environment. Now, for all I know Lewis is the kind of person who gets upset over nothing, but if that’s the case then it’s _his_ attitude you should be criticizing. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/53 "2014-06-05T00:40:23Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > … we do know that whatever happened looked bad enough that it upset a man who must have a good idea of what is and isn’t typical behavior in that environment. Nope, we don’t know that. We know that he acted like he was upset. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/54 "2014-06-05T00:44:26Z")
> [@MoonMoon](#): > > When you don’t realize that groping is not the accidental brushing or touching of a body part, you should probably thank your lucky stars. This is precisely the kind of disconnect that #yesallwomen was trying to illustrate. #yesallcrowdsurfers ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/55 "2014-06-05T02:36:16Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > Nope, we don’t know that. We know that he acted like he was upset. It’s certainly possible that Lewis was putting on an act for reasons of his own. But if you think he was exaggerating or lying about what he saw, why did you bother to write a long post criticizing what you imagine to have been the behavior and attitude of a girl who might not even exist? Within a single post you went from saying that the girl was immature to expect men to refrain from sexually assaulting her: > [@Dingbang](#): > > If a girl, underage or not, jumps on top of a crowd of young, excited, possibly drunk, mostly young men, isn’t it a given that someone will touch her in a naughty place? Being in physical contact with the crowd is what it’s all about – being held aloft and moved around by the many hands, willing or not. Do people really think they can toss their bodies on top of a crowd and demand that no one touch them except in the designated safe areas? That smacks of an immature attitude of “I want to do what I want without any consequences.” To saying that she was probably a slut who wanted it anyway: > [@Dingbang](#): > > And I really doubt the girl was shocked and appalled at having strangers touch her. This discussion seems to assume that an innocent young nun wandered away from the convent and ended up on top of an audience at a Staind concert. Doubt it. I realize that some people really like playing blame the victim, but you seem unusually eager to do so given that all we know about this girl is that a witness said she was being molested. And the witness was not an “innocent young nun” himself, but rather a 40-something rock musician. I don’t know enough about Lewis to know if he’s credible, but whether you believe him or not it’s pretty sick to blame the girl for this incident. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/56 "2014-06-05T03:34:39Z")
I was surprised that a performer in stage could tell that a crowd surfer was being molested from that distance. And if there was molestation going on, wouldn’t it be just as bad as if it had happened to an adult? What does her age have to do with it? Other than that, if someone sees sexual assault going on then if course he or she should take action to stop it. Threatening to have a mob beat someone, though, seems unwise for more than one reason. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/57 "2014-06-05T04:35:52Z")
> [@MoonMoon](#): > > When you don’t realize that groping is not the accidental brushing or touching of a body part, you should probably thank your lucky stars. This is precisely the kind of disconnect that #yesallwomen was trying to illustrate. When you don’t realize that a lot of this has come off as possibly confusing accidental brushing or touching of a body part with groping, you should prolly thank your lucky stars. This is precisely the kind of disconnected communication that not only isn’t helpful to a discussion, it’s downright harmful. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/58 "2014-06-05T12:31:51Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Within a single post you went from saying that the girl was immature to expect men to refrain from sexually assaulting her: No. Let’s pay attention when we read. I said it is immature for one to expect or demand that there be no contact with privates parts while crowd surfing. As has been pointed out repeatedly by others, contact does not equal sexual assault. > [@Lamia](#): > > To saying that she was probably a slut who wanted it anyway: > > I realize that some people really like playing blame the victim, but you seem unusually eager to do so given that all we know about this girl is that a witness said she was being molested. “You’re blaming the victim” is the easy refrain for those who want to presume guilt and not weigh credibility or any mitigating or contributory factors. You’re the one who said “slut.” Don’t try to stick me with that. > [@Lamia](#): > > I don’t know enough about Lewis to know if he’s credible, but whether you believe him or not it’s pretty sick to blame the girl for this incident. No one is trying to “blame the girl for this incident.” Key here is that we don’t know what “this incident” was. Must I repeat my agreement with the obvious, that actual sexual assault is a crime, wrong, and should be called out even if the girl threw herself on the crowd? I’m merely pointing out that we don’t know that happened and there’s reason for doubt. For all we know, the girl was not underage, was perfectly happy with whatever was happening in the crowd, and bummed out when the singer stopped it. You admit that you don’t know if Lewis is credible, but I’m still sick for ‘blaming the girl?’ Where’s the logic in that? If person A says person B is being molested, and I have reason to doubt the veracity of person A, that’s blaming the victim? Treating women as automatic victims is a form of infantilization. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/59 "2014-06-05T13:00:55Z")
Girls who would like strangers in a mob to squeeze their breasts and reach under their clothes are vanishingly rare. I was a punk rock teen, and I did my share of crowd surfing. Punk rock shows were always a safe space for me. They were my community, full of my friends and artists I admired. The music I listened to moved seamlessly between the joys and angst of teenage life to social justice. From age 15 or so on, on weekend nights I could be found at the local punk rock club. I definitely would not expect to get groped at such an event. Elbowed in the mosh pit, sure. Toe stomped and beer spilled on me? Yeah. But not sexually attacked. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/60 "2014-06-05T13:12:17Z")
Fine, whatever, you win. Just _please_ never mention my mom and her vagina again. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956.md?page=4)