# Rock Star Stops Concert To Make A Point **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 3, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956 "2014-06-03T20:09:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Cubsfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Cubsfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cubsfan)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/61 "2014-06-05T17:37:35Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I saw Pearl Jam on their most recent tour, and about halfway through the show something troubling apparently happened near the front of the house. Eddie Vedder stopped singing, said “Is something wrong?”, then held out his arm and said “Hold on, stop!” Immediately the band stopped playing and the lights came up. Vedder then said “What’s going on down here?” There was a pause, and then he said something like “This situation is about to be resolved. Everything is going to be fine.” There was another pause while he continued looking down from the stage, and then they started up the song again. > > I’m not sure exactly what happened or even if the troublemaker(s) stopped on their own or if security had stepped in, but I was impressed that Vedder and the rest of the band responded so quickly and calmly. > . Similiar thing happened at a recent Trivium concert I went to at House of Blues. Obviously very aggressive high energy metal and lots of meatheads, tough guys etc thrashing around. Right in the middle of a verse the singer stopped singing, waved the band down and brought the lights up because a couple guys started brawling. He addressed the crowd very calmly saying things like “Ok, everybody hang tight. No body hit anyone else. Let security get these guys out of here. Alright, let get back to things, have fun and don’t hurt each other” and then they dropped back into the middle of the song. It was pretty impressive and thoughtful the way he handled it. Things can get pretty out of hand at those kinds of concerts as everyone goes nuts with testosterone and tries to out toughguy everyone etc… ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2014, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/62 "2014-06-05T23:28:53Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > For all we know, the girl was not underage, was perfectly happy with whatever was happening in the crowd, and bummed out when the singer stopped it. You admit that you don’t know if Lewis is credible, but I’m still sick for ‘blaming the girl?’ Where’s the logic in that? If person A says person B is being molested, and I have reason to doubt the veracity of person A, that’s blaming the victim? No, this is blaming the victim: > [@Dingbang](#): > > It’s amusing how much people can dissect the actions, intentions, and explicit or implicit permission involved with something as inherently reckless as crowd surfing. > > If a girl, underage or not, jumps on top of a crowd of young, excited, possibly drunk, mostly young men, isn’t it a given that someone will touch her in a naughty place? Being in physical contact with the crowd is what it’s all about – being held aloft and moved around by the many hands, willing or not. Do people really think they can toss their bodies on top of a crowd and demand that no one touch them except in the designated safe areas? That smacks of an immature attitude of “I want to do what I want without any consequences.” > > I’m not saying that excuses sexual assault, but are we really discussing _that_ or someone innocently, or even not so innocently, making contact with a girl’s breast, ass, or groin? My experience at concerts suggests the latter, and if that’s your definition of sexual assault then we need to light a lot more bonfires to burn the child molesters. (How do we know the alleged pedophile men weren’t minors themselves? Complicates matters a bit.) There seems to be a lot of high and mighty claims that any physical contact with a girl – and god help us, an underage girl – amounts to sexual assault unless she gave you written permission to do so. If I’m standing in a crowd and a girl comes surfing overhead, do I have to ask to see her driver’s license or do I just let her drop to the ground so I’m not called out as a child molester? I’m not going to intentionally grab a boobie or yank her jeans down to go all molesty on her, but I also won’t feel like a lowlife creep if I happen to touch her _there._ Now if she were just enjoying the show and I walked up and grabbed her crotch, then yes, I’d be a criminal creep. > > But if the girl was underage, which we have absolutely no evidence of, then she can’t give permission to be touched sexually. That would seem to incriminate the touchers even if she was foolhardy enough to submit her body to the crowd, right? So what’s the solution? Ban underage girls? Make them wear a t-shirt with their age prominently displayed? If my son were old enough to attend a Staind concert, I’d have to warn him that he should not make any contact with a female there lest he be accused of molestation. > > And I really doubt the girl was shocked and appalled at having strangers touch her. This discussion seems to assume that an innocent young nun wandered away from the convent and ended up on top of an audience at a Staind concert. Doubt it. Would that make it okay for an adult to take advantage of her sexually, by having intercourse with a minor, for instance? No way. But if she throws herself on top of the crowd, it seems like a huge overreaction to call people pedophiles because they touch her. That’s not questioning the veracity of Aaron Lewis, that’s 500+ words about how the girl was asking for it. Your post contained a single sentence at the very end about Lewis’s credibility: > [@Dingbang](#): > > I think the singer gets off on being the big hero every time he does this. I think it’s fair enough to question Lewis’s motives and honesty. Even if his heart was in the right place, he didn’t handle the situation well. But while Lewis’s behavior is the actual subject of this thread, you’re clearly more interested in finding fault with the girl. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/63 "2014-06-06T03:34:44Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > No, this is blaming the victim: > That’s not questioning the veracity of Aaron Lewis, that’s 500+ words about how the girl was asking for it. Your post contained a single sentence at the very end about Lewis’s credibility: These two sentences do not accurately reflect the content of the post you quoted. > [@Lamia](#): > > I think it’s fair enough to question Lewis’s motives and honesty. Even if his heart was in the right place, he didn’t handle the situation well. But while Lewis’s behavior is the actual subject of this thread, you’re clearly more interested in finding fault with the girl. I think what’s unfair is that you’ve already decided that there is a victim without possibly knowing what actually happened, and now you’re excoriating someone for not sharing your unsupported belief, even going so far as to declare him sympathetic to and willingly abetting sexual predators. Even if your heart is in the right place, you’re not handling this situation well. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/64 "2014-06-06T14:06:19Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > But while Lewis’s behavior is the actual subject of this thread, you’re clearly more interested in finding fault with the girl. No, I’m questioning whether there is anything to blame anyone for. You’re assuming the crowd was sexually assaulting her and I’ve pointed out that might not be the case. I never said that if she was sexually assaulted then she deserved it, or “was asking for it” or was to blame for it. That would be absurd. And please don’t attribute vile comments to me when they came from your own keyboard, not mine. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/65 "2014-06-06T15:53:58Z")
You’re asking whether we’re talking about sexual assault or whether we’re talking about “not-so-innocently” grabbing a girl’s breasts or groin. The trouble that you’re experiencing is that those are the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/66 "2014-06-06T16:20:46Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > No, I’m questioning whether there is anything to blame anyone for. You’re assuming the crowd was sexually assaulting her and I’ve pointed out that might not be the case. > > I never said that if she was sexually assaulted then she deserved it, or “was asking for it” or was to blame for it. That would be absurd. > > And please don’t attribute vile comments to me when they came from your own keyboard, not mine. It seems to me posters are coming with two different perspectives. One group feels that we aren’t really sure what was happening to the young woman, it might have been regular crowd surfing and the singer overreacted. The other group seems to assume that the singer, who has likely seen thousands of people crowd surf at his concerts, saw something truly inappropriate happening in the audience and stopped for good reason. **Dingbang** hasn’t substantiated his/her claim about the artist doing this routinely, so I’m not sure what to think about that. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/67 "2014-06-06T17:25:09Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > You’re asking whether we’re talking about sexual assault or whether we’re talking about “not-so-innocently” grabbing a girl’s breasts or groin. The trouble that you’re experiencing is that those are the same thing. I actually said “innocently, or even not so innocently, making contact with a girl’s breast,…” You changed it to “grabbing” to make it sound more aggressive. Throwing the “sexual assault” label around so freely doesn’t do anything good for women. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/68 "2014-06-06T17:41:31Z")
It’s a phrase with an actual fucking definition. If you don’t want it thrown at you, learn it. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/69 "2014-06-06T17:50:16Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > It’s a phrase with an actual fucking definition. If you don’t want it thrown at you, learn it. Yep, it has an actual fucking definition. That doesn’t prevent people like you from applying it to situations where it may not be appropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/70 "2014-06-06T17:57:52Z")
People like me, viz. people who know what sexual assault means? “Not so innocently making contact with a girl’s breast,” which is to say groping, is sexual assault even at, like, a Wikipedia level of clarity. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/71 "2014-06-06T18:29:59Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > People like me, viz. people who know what sexual assault means? > > “Not so innocently making contact with a girl’s breast,” which is to say groping, is sexual assault even at, like, a Wikipedia level of clarity. Yes, Wikipedia level. As in not always clear, not always correct, not always reliable, and composed by people who may or may not know what they are talking about. I don’t know why you’re in such a snit about this point. If it was sexual assault, fine, I’ll get in a punch on the guy, too. But I don’t want the bar for defining it to be as low as yours. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/72 "2014-06-06T19:30:01Z")
I’m not in a snit. I’m helping you out. You defined the event. What I am telling you is that your definition of the event overlaps with sexual assault. This is not about what I believe happened. It’s about you offering opinions about definitions that are not matters of opinion. Rockfest is where, Missouri? [QUOTE=Sexual Abuse, Second Degree] 566.101. 1. A person commits the offense of sexual abuse in the second degree if he or she purposely subjects another person to sexual contact without that person’s consent. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Definitions] (3) “Sexual contact”, any touching of another person with the genitals or any touching of the genitals or anus of another person, or the breast of a female person, or such touching through the clothing, for the purpose of arousing or gratifying sexual desire of any person; [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/73 "2014-06-06T20:18:45Z")
Thank you so much for helping me out. So you would support sexual assault charges against a young man who touched the breast of a young woman being carried on the crowd above him? Remember that neither you nor I know the extent of the touching, yet you persist in saying it was sexual assault no matter how fleeting or insignificant. Imagine that 17-year-old appearing in court: Judge: Did you touch the female in question? Groper: Yes, your honor. Judge: Was it accidental and innocent as she crowd surfed? Groper: Well, not entirely accidental. I mean, she was coming overhead and I reached up to support her and, you know, my hand landed on her breast and I didn’t immediately move it away. 'Cause… you know, boobies. Judge: Guilty of sexual assault, a Class C Felony which carries up to 7 years in prison and fines reaching $5,000. ([http://www.sexcrimecriminaldefense.com/missouri/](http://www.sexcrimecriminaldefense.com/missouri/)) Satisfied? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/74 "2014-06-06T20:46:22Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > Thank you so much for helping me out. > > So you would support sexual assault charges against a young man who touched the breast of a young woman being carried on the crowd above him? Remember that neither you nor I know the extent of the touching, yet you persist in saying it was sexual assault no matter how fleeting or insignificant. Why do you keep insisting that the contact was fleeting or insignificant? I haven’t seen anyone argue in this thread that simply holding someone up while they crowdsurf constitutes sexual assault - why is every one of your posts in this thread predicated on the assumption that that is all that happened? Do you do this with other forms of assault? If I say I saw someone get punched in the face, are you going to post at length about how what I saw might not have actually been a fight? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/75 "2014-06-06T20:55:39Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > Thank you so much for helping me out. > > So you would support sexual assault charges against a young man who touched the breast of a young woman being carried on the crowd above him? Remember that neither you nor I know the extent of the touching, yet you persist in saying it was sexual assault no matter how fleeting or insignificant. > > Imagine that 17-year-old appearing in court: > > Judge: Did you touch the female in question? > > Groper: Yes, your honor. > > Judge: Was it accidental and innocent as she crowd surfed? > > Groper: Well, not entirely accidental. I mean, she was coming overhead and I reached up to support her and, you know, my hand landed on her breast and I didn’t immediately move it away. 'Cause… you know, boobies. > > Judge: Guilty of sexual assault, a Class C Felony which carries up to 7 years in prison and fines reaching $5,000. ([http://www.sexcrimecriminaldefense.com/missouri/](http://www.sexcrimecriminaldefense.com/missouri/)) > > Satisfied? Well, yeah. If you accidentally touch someone and decide to keep touching them against their will in order to get sexual satisfaction from it, that’s assault and you are a creep that needs to kept out of society. I take a crowded subway to work every morning, and one often brushes against others. But if some burly dude used that as a cover for trying to work his hands down your pants, you wouldn’t just shrug, would you? And you wouldn’t expect the people next to you to think “Oh, he must get off on having strange men touch him in public, no biggie.” ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/76 "2014-06-06T21:04:11Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Why do you keep insisting that the contact was fleeting or insignificant? I’m NOT. The possibility that it was fleeting or insignificant is the whole point of this debate between me and my boy Jimmy. WE DO NOT KNOW THE EXTENT OF THE TOUCHING. That’s the issue here. Some guy on stage starts screaming and we’re supposed to assume there was some unambiguous sexual assault? I contend that in the crowd surfing situation a person touching a woman in private areas does not _absolutely, without qualification_, meet the definition of sexual assault – a pretty damn serious charge, both morally and legally. We’re arguing about how low to put the bar for the definition of sexual assault. Some apparently want the bar laying flat on the ground, and I’d like to see it up just a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/77 "2014-06-06T21:06:40Z")
It’s possible that a person who saw this incident is in a better position to make a judgment about it than someone who’s just discussing the idea in a hypothetical way. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/78 "2014-06-06T21:10:34Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Well, yeah. If you accidentally touch someone and decide to keep touching them against their will in order to get sexual satisfaction from it, that’s assault and you are a creep that needs to kept out of society. So that 17-year-old in the courtroom, you’re happy with him getting a felony record and up to 7 years in prison? For his 5 seconds of breast contact. That makes him a creep that needs to be kept out of society. > [@even\_sven](#): > > I take a crowded subway to work every morning, and one often brushes against others. But if some burly dude used that as a cover for trying to work his hands down your pants, you wouldn’t just shrug, would you? And you wouldn’t expect the people next to you to think “Oh, he must get off on having strange men touch him in public, no biggie.” Trying to work his hands down your pants on the subway? Seriously? You’re conflating that with the scenario I’m trying to talk about? Jesus Christ sucking a corn dog, those situations are nowhere near comparable. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/79 "2014-06-06T21:13:46Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > It’s possible that a person who saw this incident is in a better position to make a judgment about it than someone who’s just discussing the idea in a hypothetical way. Of course he would be. We’re a long way from trying to determine what actually happened at that concert on that day. If that were the discussion, then I’d say “Fuck if I know. I wasn’t there” and be done with it. But this turned into a discussion of how quickly to assign a sexual assault label. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/80 "2014-06-06T21:21:10Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > Of course he would be. We’re a long way from trying to determine what actually happened at that concert on that day. If that were the discussion, then I’d say “Fuck if I know. I wasn’t there” and be done with it. You’ve said lots of times that we don’t know what happened at the concert: > [@Dingbang](#): > > WE DO NOT KNOW THE EXTENT OF THE TOUCHING. That’s the issue here. Some guy on stage starts screaming and we’re supposed to assume there was some unambiguous sexual assault? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956.md?page=5)