# Rock Star Stops Concert To Make A Point **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 3, 2014, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956 "2014-06-03T20:09:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/81 "2014-06-06T21:28:22Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > I’m NOT. The possibility that it was fleeting or insignificant is the whole point of this debate between me and my boy Jimmy. In literally every reported crime, ever, there’s a chance that the report is in error, and that no crime actually occurred. Why do you think that needs to be pointed out, in particular, in this case? And, more to the point, is anyone arguing that fleeting or insignificant touching should be considered sexual assault? I’ve not seen anyone make that argument, so why are you so fixated on arguing against it? > [@](#): > > WE DO NOT KNOW THE EXTENT OF THE TOUCHING. That’s the issue here. Some guy on stage starts screaming and we’re supposed to assume there was some unambiguous sexual assault? Do you have a particular reason to think this guy is lying, or mistaken, about what he’s seen? Does he have a history of lying about sexual assaults? Do you think that Laine Stanley believes that “fleeting or insignificant touching” should be considered sexual assault? Given that Stanley, in the course of his career, has probably seen hundreds, if not thousands, of people crowd-surfing, doesn’t that add some credence to the idea that he observed something unusual going on in this particular instance? > [@](#): > > I contend that in the crowd surfing situation a person touching a woman in private areas does not _absolutely, without qualification_, meet the definition of sexual assault… Yeah, neither does anyone else in this thread. > [@](#): > > – a pretty damn serious charge, both morally and legally. Let’s be clear, here - there is no charge involved. No one has been arrested. No one has even been identified. We have a report from someone who saw what they thought was a sexual assault in progress, and for some reason, you have taken this as an opportunity to expound, at length, at all the possible things that might have happened that might not have been sexual assault. That seems like a really odd reaction to me. Is there any particular reason you have to assume, automatically, that Laine Stanley doesn’t know what sexual assault looks like? I don’t really know anything about the guy. What reason do you have to doubt his story? > [@](#): > > We’re arguing about how low to put the bar for the definition of sexual assault. Some apparently want the bar laying flat on the ground, and I’d like to see it up just a bit. This is pure straw. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/82 "2014-06-06T21:31:34Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > Trying to work his hands down your pants on the subway? Seriously? You’re conflating that with the scenario I’m trying to talk about? Jesus Christ sucking a corn dog, those situations are nowhere near comparable. Yeah, that’s kind of the point. We’re talking about sexual assault, which is generally pretty distinct from accidentally touching someone’s butt while they’re crowd surfing. You’re the one who keeps arguing that these are things that are easily confused. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/83 "2014-06-06T21:37:04Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Do you think that Laine Stanley believes that “fleeting or insignificant touching” should be considered sexual assault? Alas, Layne Staley is dead. This is about Aaron Lewis from Staind, and from what I remember, they suck. Otherwise you’re right. And for some reason this always gets glossed over when we’re discussing sexual abuse or assault, but there is an entire process that is designed to not only determine if people are guilty or not, but determine what kind of punishment they deserve if they are guilty. A maximum sentence is only that. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/84 "2014-06-06T21:42:45Z")
Marley123, I’m not trying to be obtuse but I have no idea what point you’re making with that last post. > [@Miller](#): > > And, more to the point, is anyone arguing that fleeting or insignificant touching should be considered sexual assault? I’ve not seen anyone make that argument, so why are you so fixated on arguing against it? Jimmy Chitwood: “Not so innocently making contact with a girl’s breast,” which is to say groping, is sexual assault even at, like, a Wikipedia level of clarity." and “You’re asking whether we’re talking about sexual assault or whether we’re talking about “not-so-innocently” grabbing a girl’s breasts or groin. The trouble that you’re experiencing is that those are the same thing.” > [@Miller](#): > > Is there any particular reason you have to assume, automatically, that Laine Stanley doesn’t know what sexual assault looks like? I don’t really know anything about the guy. What reason do you have to doubt his story? No reason at all, other than not assuming anything. And that argument about where to place the bar? Nah, straw is not the right critique even if you think it’s a bad illustration. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/85 "2014-06-06T21:45:45Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Yeah, that’s kind of the point. We’re talking about sexual assault, which is generally pretty distinct from accidentally touching someone’s butt while they’re crowd surfing. You’re the one who keeps arguing that these are things that are easily confused. Sexual assault = BAD No, I’m not the one who says they are easily confused. To me, they are pretty distinct. So we’re all in agreement that shoving your hands down someone’s pants – at a concert or on the subway – is sexual assault. Accidentally touching someone’s butt while she is crowd surfing is not sexual assault. Glad we’ve cleared that up. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/86 "2014-06-06T21:46:44Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > Marley123, I’m not trying to be obtuse but I have no idea what point you’re making with that last post. You’ve said over and over that we don’t know what happened at the concert and it might’ve been innocent or whatever. I said Lewis was probably in a better position than you to make that call, and you said we’re not trying to determine what happened at the concert. So I was trying to remind you that you’ve actually speculated about that a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/87 "2014-06-06T21:47:08Z")
[QUOTE=Dingbang] Jimmy Chitwood: “Not so innocently making contact with a girl’s breast,” which is to say groping, is sexual assault even at, like, a Wikipedia level of clarity." and “You’re asking whether we’re talking about sexual assault or whether we’re talking about “not-so-innocently” grabbing a girl’s breasts or groin. The trouble that you’re experiencing is that those are the same thing.” [/QUOTE] That’s very similar to me saying fleeting or insignificant touching is sexual assault. The only difference is it’s the opposite. You said that it could either be innocent touching or “not-innocent” touching, but either way, you didn’t think it was sexual assault. I said that “not-innocent” groping of breasts or genitals is by-the-book sexual assault, which made you mistaken. Then we started talking about labeling as if anyone other than you was being categorical. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/88 "2014-06-06T21:49:45Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You’ve said over and over that we don’t know what happened at the concert and it might’ve been innocent or whatever. I said Lewis was probably in a better position than you to make that call, and you said we’re not trying to determine what happened at the concert. So I was trying to remind you that you’ve actually speculated about that a lot. It’s all about the evolution of the discussion. I’ve speculated a lot about what happened at the concert only in the sense of trying to show that we _don’t know_ what happened and therefore shouldn’t jump to conclusions about things as serious as sexual assault. Then I fell into the rabbit hole of defining sexual assault, and here we are. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/89 "2014-06-06T21:53:11Z")
And why do you need to remind everyone not to jump to conclusions? Is anyone going to be thrown in jail because of this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/90 "2014-06-06T21:54:47Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > That’s very similar to me saying fleeting or insignificant touching is sexual assault. The only difference is it’s the opposite. > > You said that it could either be innocent touching or “not-innocent” touching, but either way, you didn’t think it was sexual assault. I said that “not-innocent” groping of breasts or genitals is by-the-book sexual assault, which made you mistaken. Then we started talking about labeling as if anyone other than you was being categorical. Perhaps we’re all tangled up in this “not so innocent” phrase I used early on. I meant it to mean not so innocent as in a seventh grader peeking in the girl’s restroom, or a young concertgoer fleetingly making contact with a girl’s body in a harmless way, but it seems we’re giving it a much more sinister meaning. That could be my mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/91 "2014-06-06T21:56:27Z")
Yes: your mistake is assuming that grabbing or copping a feel on a stranger can be innocent. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/92 "2014-06-06T21:57:13Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And why do you need to remind everyone not to jump to conclusions? Is anyone going to be thrown in jail because of this thread? So Straight Dope discussions are only for situations that have real world consequences? The discussion of what constitutes sexual assault is meaningless unless someone’s fate is determined by our thread? ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/93 "2014-06-06T22:00:28Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > Of course he would be. We’re a long way from trying to determine what actually happened at that concert on that day. If that were the discussion, then I’d say “Fuck if I know. I wasn’t there” and be done with it. > > But this turned into a discussion of how quickly to assign a sexual assault label. If you watch the video the concert was during the day (so not dark and bright stage lights) and there is a brief view of a woman on the crowd not too far from the front of the stage. The question boils down to whether you believe the guy actually saw something or not. You seem to very much want to believe that he’s making it all up. Why? Is it really that mind blowing to you that there are guys out there who will grope a female crowd surfer? The only reason it’s a discussion of where to set the bar is because you’re unwilling to believe the first-hand witness. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/94 "2014-06-06T22:03:26Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > Jimmy Chitwood: “Not so innocently making contact with a girl’s breast,” which is to say groping, is sexual assault even at, like, a Wikipedia level of clarity." > and “You’re asking whether we’re talking about sexual assault or whether we’re talking about “not-so-innocently” grabbing a girl’s breasts or groin. The trouble that you’re experiencing is that those are the same thing.” I’m not sure what you think you’re demonstrating, there. Yes, “Not so innocently” grabbing someone’s tit is sexual assault. Which is distinct from “innocently” grabbing someone’s tit. “Not so innocent” is pretty much another way of saying “guilty.” > [@](#): > > No reason at all, other than not assuming anything. Well, you’re assuming that the guy can’t tell the difference between regular crowd surfing and sexual assault, for one thing. > [@](#): > > And that argument about where to place the bar? Nah, straw is not the right critique even if you think it’s a bad illustration. Is it really an argument when there’s only one guy involved in it? Nobody’s is disputing your “bar” for sexual assault. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/95 "2014-06-06T22:07:22Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > Perhaps we’re all tangled up in this “not so innocent” phrase I used early on. I meant it to mean not so innocent as in a seventh grader peeking in the girl’s restroom, or a young concertgoer fleetingly making contact with a girl’s body in a harmless way, but it seems we’re giving it a much more sinister meaning. That could be my mistake. So in your mind, the list of things that could have happened here is essentially 1. totally accidental contact of hand to boob, and 2. intentional contact of hand to boob which is still harmless, and that’s it? That’s the complete possibility space based on what Staind-guy was saying? Do you think maybe there’s a problem with your heuristic? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/96 "2014-06-06T22:07:55Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > Sexual assault = BAD I’m glad you clarified that, I was a little unsure where you stood on the issue. > [@](#): > > No, I’m not the one who says they are easily confused. To me, they are pretty distinct. Isn’t that the entire point of your argument, here? That (ahem) Aaron Lewis can’t tell the difference between crowd surfing and sexual assault? If they’re so distinct, why are you so adamant that we can’t know what really happened? We have an eye witness, and as you say, it’s not hard to confuse one for the other. > [@](#): > > So we’re all in agreement that shoving your hands down someone’s pants – at a concert or on the subway – is sexual assault. Accidentally touching someone’s butt while she is crowd surfing is not sexual assault. Glad we’ve cleared that up. Yes, you’ve finally figured out what everyone else in this thread is talking about. Good job. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/97 "2014-06-06T22:09:19Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > If you watch the video the concert was during the day (so not dark and bright stage lights) and there is a brief view of a woman on the crowd not too far from the front of the stage. The question boils down to whether you believe the guy actually saw something or not. You seem to very much want to believe that he’s making it all up. Why? Is it really that mind blowing to you that there are guys out there who will grope a female crowd surfer? The only reason it’s a discussion of where to set the bar is because you’re unwilling to believe the first-hand witness. Heavy sigh… Yeah, entirely possible the guy was right and he saw actual sexual assault and was right to stop it. It does not blow my mind at all to think some assholes in a crowd would grope the girl. I’m not unwilling to believe the first-hand witness; I just moved on from that to a more esoteric point. I guess I didn’t bring the crowd with me. Too busy crowd surfing, maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/98 "2014-06-06T22:12:36Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > So Straight Dope discussions are only for situations that have real world consequences? The discussion of what constitutes sexual assault is meaningless unless someone’s fate is determined by our thread? I’m trying to point out that you’re overstating your case. You’ve spent most of the thread saying WHAT IF IT WAS INNOCENT TOUCHING and not really dealt with the possibility that maybe it wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/99 "2014-06-06T22:17:19Z")
At the last Woodstock their was a similar complaint from women who were crowdsurfing were being fondled. A singer suggested to the women when a guy comes thru “grab his balls”. Point made - dont crowdsurf if you dont want to be touched. As for the incident, once at a basketball game in college we were tossing this girl up and when she came down, my hand accidentally slipped up and I ended up grabbing onto her breast. Yes, it was an accident and I apologized to her. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2014, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956/100 "2014-06-06T22:18:58Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m trying to point out that you’re overstating your case. You’ve spent most of the thread saying WHAT IF IT WAS INNOCENT TOUCHING and not really dealt with the possibility that maybe it wasn’t. There’s not much to discuss in that case. Jerk ass concertgoers assault girl, singer does the right thing by stopping it, move on to the next thread. This started with me noting how people assume nefarious activity in a situation that might not be so clear. Thought that would be kind of an interesting point to explore. Guess not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rock-star-stops-concert-to-make-a-point/689956.md?page=6)