Rockets should land on their tails, as God and Heinlein intended

I was speaking about the earlier attempts to go down this road, but you’ve pointed out the utter complexity of it all. As it is it seems to make more sense to produce inexpensive disposable launch vehicles, especially for unmanned missions. I don’t know if that’s anymore feasible than any other method though. However, it’s clear the cost of fuel won’t be any higher, the weight and initial cost of the rocket will be less than something that is recoverable, and the costs of R&D and testing will be lower. It seems like a tough job to overcome that.

Re-usability isn’t a definitive term either, re-using a launch vehicle once won’t necessarily make up for the additional costs. Any idea what is considered a reasonable number of re-uses to justify this kind of technology? Obviously it will vary with the particular technology, but there must be an idea of the percentage of total costs including the rocket, fuel, facilities, and staff for just one launch that would indicate the number of uses needed to make the technology worthwhile.

I still whole heartily support this kind of research. If it wasn’t for all those damn atheists at NASA we’d have rockets landing on their tails already :slight_smile:

Yes, my understanding is that landing in the sea would make reuse far less useful, and possibly a net loss. The refurbishment is going to be substantially more involved and that’s with the HW being specially designed to handle a dunk (something that I’d guess SpaceX doesn’t want to do).

The first Falcon 1 flight failed due to a nut that corroded in the salty air on the way to Omelek Island. So it would not surprise me if there is a certain institutional bias against dipping their rockets in salt water :).

At any rate, Stranger has it right, as usual. Reuse only makes sense if the hardware is a major cost of the flight. SpaceX is private so it’s impossible to know the current breakdown, but they have been continuously working on automation and simplification of ground support. Not only does this save costs in and of itself, but it makes the HW a larger fraction of the total, which thereby increases the value of reuse.

Kind of surprised the FAA lets them test in an inhabited area. Granted it looks like mainly farmland, but still, there seemed to be a decent number of houses down there that probably wouldn’t appreciate flaming rocket debris raining down on them.

I was surprised to learn recently how small a fraction of launch costs (something under 1%) go to fuel. So if you can get part of your rocket back for re-use, it’s probably worth the extra fuel, assuming whatever your trying to launch isn’t so heavy that you need all the available fuel to get it into orbit.

Of course, as Stranger says, you can’t just dust the recovered first stage off and launch it again. So presumably the savings may or may not be lost in refurbishing the recovered stage for another go. My understanding is that this was a problem for the recoverable boosters on the Space Shuttle. Between the costs of recovery and the effort needed to restore them for another use (probably not helped by their being immersed in salt-water), they didn’t really save much money over just rebuilding them from scratch every time.

It gets even more complicated with the Falcon 9 Heavy. The first stage boosters will cut out sooner than a F9 first stage and thereby be even more recoverable. The second stage will be going a lot faster and be farther downrange at separation, though, and recovery more expensive (though if it’s far enough downrange it might not have to fly all the way back to the launch point–might be easier to land in Florida if launched from Texas, for instance). It’s going to make for some very interesting pricing structures.

Printed handguns with titanium barrels coming soon? Just wondering about the possible spinoffs of the technology.

The surface finish isn’t quite good enough for things like bearings or the inside of a barrel, but it’s still very good. The printer could easily handle the rifling–run a quality reamer through it and you’d have a very good barrel.

They showed me an object with a surface that looked to be a fine crosshatch pattern. It was about 2 cm thick. When you looked at it straight on, though, you could see that most of the surface consisted of fine holes, each much less than a millimeter across. The holes had such a high aspect ratio that you could only see a small circle through it; if you were off-axis by a couple degrees it was enough to block the light. When you tilted it, the set of holes that you could see through (maybe a 1 cm circle) moved across the surface.

Hot damn! Some exciting stuff since I wrote the OP.

The first stage return in the OP had a camera on the stage. Unfortunately, due to some technical issues, the video stream was highly corrupted and essentially unusable. However, SpaceX released the footage, and various forum members took it upon themselves to restore it to a reasonable state.

It’s not perfect, but incredible nevertheless considering the nature of the event. Remember, this stage went from hypersonic speeds to zero velocity, all under complete control. It’s basically unheard of for a vehicle like this.

On July 14th, SpaceX launched their ORBCOMM mission successfully. They made another effort to soft-land the first stage, and was again successful.

Although their video feed no longer had the transmission problems, they instead encountered icing problems. Still, you can see what’s going on reasonably well (initial burn, leg deployment, splashdown).

Today, they released their footage from the chase plane, and again it’s pretty damn incredible. That thing is really moving fast–and coming down at enough of an angle to be a tad concerning. But it both slows down and straightens perfectly at the end. They lose sight at the last second but you can see most of the important bits.

SpaceX claims their next attempt will be on a barge or land (I suspect that “barge” may include things like a jack-up platform). If they can pull that off–and they appear to have all the pieces they need–then all they need to complete the reusability circle is efficient ground handling. That’s not trivial, but it’s all relatively straightforward stuff. They have already brought their pad cycle time down to about 3 weeks, which is not quite a record, but is impressive nonetheless.

Wouldn’t it make sense to just have the bottom of the first stage separate from the rest and parachute down with a short rocket kick at the last moment (as with the Soyuz capsule)? Or just have legs long and strong enough to absorb the landing without any rocket firing.
The idea of that thing coming down a launch… landing facility and having the rocket engine lit up with no second chances seems like a disaster waiting to happen.

If all the expensive pieces (engines, pumps, avionics) are kept there then it would mean just the loss of the tanks on top, which should be an almost negligible cost compared with the rest.

The initial plan was to use parachutes (and recover from the ocean). Ocean water isn’t very nice to rocket parts, and once it’s been exposed, it’s often not much more expensive just to get a new part.

Parachutes don’t have the precision to put a rocket safely down on land, especially if you’re trying to land it upright.

The main thing they are aiming to recover are the engines. That’s really the only expensive (in relative terms) equipment. They’re the only thing that it might actually be worth lowering your payload to recover.

Interestingly, the delta IV makes a similar choice with their first stage engine, though not in quite the same way. They don’t recover them (and don’t have plans to). Rather, they deliberately sacrificed some efficiency in order to make the engines much simpler and therefore cheaper. The engines have about a 30% lower thrust to weight ratio and a 10% lower specific impulse than the space shuttle main engines, to which they are comparable (the advantage is they have 80% fewer parts). I don’t know what the real world difference in payload capability this causes (I’m sure it depends on the target orbit), but I bet it ends up being similar to the hit SpaceX is going to take in order to recover their engines.

If they can get that technology working for 120+ksi nickel alloys and other exotic materials with a 1 thou tolerance then you could probably write off the whole space thing as a RnD expense and pay it all back on the ability to manufacture what can not currently be machined. Well it can , but the machining process is so ungodly expensive and the tolerance barely achievable it limits what is possible.

Fascinating stuff.

I think about this stuff while trying to sleep at night: it helps.

What I had in mind was the lower portion of the first stage (engines, avionics, pumps, etc… the pricey bits) to land on… land, not on water. That way, by separating it from the main tanks it should be easier to steer it to a landing area, deploy parachutes at a relatively low altitude (to keep it from drifting too much) and then touch down on solid ground. Lunar lander style sort off.
I suppose the tanks could also be recovered separately, they’d be relatively very light and a water landing with parachutes would do the trick.

It just seems way to difficult and risky to do a vertical landing with a full first stage stack.

The first problem is the lack of land in the direction the rocket is going.

Second problem is parachutes have a dislike for working at transonic speeds.

Final problem would be a total redesign of the aft end of the booster so it could be separated without a boatload of shaped charges.

It appears that you think the “engines, avionics, pumps, etc… the pricey bits” are kind of modular parts that just plug into the rest of the stage. But actually, on a conventional rocket system the stage is built around these and they’re integral to the structure of the stage. In the case of the Falcon 9v1.1 (which despite the incremental “revision number” is actually an almost completely new vehicle compared to the original Falcon 9) the engines are assembled into a structure called the Octoweb, which also contains the engine controllers and thrust vectoring system, all of the prevalve and propellant plumbing, et cetera, as well as providing the main thrust support for the stage structure, while avionics for guidance and navigation as well as telemetry are all forward. It isn’t as if they could just cut the feed lines and fly away with the Octoweb assembly any more than you could just push a button and have your engine drive away from your car. In order to make a separable propulsion assembly you’d basically have to build it as another stage with all of the additional inert mass and complexity that requires, plus a crossfeed system to transfer propellants across the separation plane. And don’t dismiss the cost of the tanks and stage structure. These are not simple tanks like the propane tank in your back yard (if you have one). It is a high strength structure optimized for the lightest possible tank, containing a number of complex components such as valves and health management sensors. Inside the tanks are smaller composite overwrapped pressure vessels (COPV) which store helium and nitrogen under high pressure. The propellant tanks themselves are welded together using stir friction welding, which provides a very strong joint but is a complex and highly tolerance sensitive process requiring dedicated tooling which limits the rate of production.

Aerodynamic decelerators (parachute/parawing/ballute) have been the traditional means for controlled recovery because they don’t require any additional consumables or high rate active guidance; for instance, the defunct Rocketplane Kistler K-1 developed and tested parachute recovery systems for their two stage fully reusable vehicle. However, they’re complex systems with a lot of flexible elements (which engineers hate because of the unpredictability); they’re limited in the size and mass of object that can be brought down at a specified rate; and the structure that they are being used to recover has to be designed to withstand the impact load. Vehicles which use other systems have to carry propellant and some form of propulsion, or supporting a glide landing profile. The Roton used a deployable rotor which would decelerate by autorotating (and was never really proven out). The STS Orbiter Vehicle (“Shuttle”) had a large compound delta wing allowing it to glide into a landing which was very costly in terms of the impact on useable payload mass. The DC-X and Blue Origin New Goddard use a powered landing profile which requires carrying extra propellant.

The thing about powered landing is that as long as you aren’t concerned about having a lot of crossrange or backrange it actually requires a surprisingly little propellant fraction; for something the size of the F9v1.1 it turns out to be around 8-12% of the total propellant load (although the impact on delta velocity is significant since this is taken out of highest acceleration part of the Stage 1 trajectory). It also allows for minimizing landing loads (soft landing). The main issue are that it requires a lot of engineering development in order to be able to control during reentry; the really difficult part isn’t the actual landing (which SpaceX, as well as others have demonstrated repeatedly using test systems) but rather asserting and maintaining control authority during reentry and especially through the transonic regime.

However, as I noted above, while the manufacturing costs of the vehicle aren’t negligible, most of the cost is in the integration, test, and launch operations. Recovering hardware saves that modest portion of the cost, but until systems and materials in reusable launch vehicles are matured to the point that they can be reflown with minimal refurbishment similar to an airliner, there are significant refurbishment costs in addition to the standard cost of the integration and processing flow. Dr. Antonio Elias (of Orbital Sciences) cited a NASA study on reusability indicated that a flight rate of 50-60 flights a year in order to justify a multistage reusable vehicle. I’ve not been able to find the study so I don’t know what fleet size this was based on, but my own calculation using the SpaceX advertised costs (from 2012, which have since increased) and some reasonable assumptions about the cost breakdowns showed that a minimum flight rate of 12-20 flights per vehicle would be required to realize a cost savings from reusability, which is a high degree of reusability; by comparison, the STS Orbiter Vehicles averaged about 9 flights between major refurbishments, although until the Block II engine redesign the engines were essentially being rebuilt every other flight.

Cost isn’t necessarily the only driving consideration for reusability, of course. Being able to refly even parts of a vehicle repeatedly may relieve bottlenecks in production (like the tanks mentioned above) allowing a higher flight rate which may be worth the additional cost. But ultimately, reducing launch costs is about reducing the amount of labor and effort in the processing flow by automating as much of the testing, checkout, and assembly as possible. Design for recovery and reusability is actually somewhat in conflict with that goal insofar as it requires additional complexity and checkout/refurbishment activities. And unless something changes, the Air Force will not accept reused Falcon 9 vehicles for EELV launches (they’re even resistant to allowing SpaceX to fly vehicles with the legs on to recover for future use), so any theoretical cost savings will come from the commercial flights.

None of this detracts from the technical accomplishments of SpaceX in developing a new launch vehicle system with recovery and reuse capability. But this isn’t a Heinlein-esque atomic rocket landing and taking off like a light aircraft. It is still a relatively conventional two stage launch vehicle, and the advertised flight rates and costs have yet to be demonstrated. But even they don’t achieve those goals, having another competitor in the launch vehicle market, and especially one that challenges the ULA dominance on medium/heavy launch services is a good thing overall.

Stranger

How would they compare in cost and capability to Euro/China/India etc?

And Mother Russia?

I don’t understand the question. Are you asking about a comparison between the SpaceX advertised launch costs and that of comparable foreign launchers?

Stranger

Stranger, yes, I understand that in a garden variety launch vehicle things are integrated throughout the rocket, but I don’t see why a rocket with a detachable power pack (to call it something) would be that much of a challenge, relatively speaking.
After all that’s more or less what the SST did, didn’t it? The orbiter acting as the power pack with the difference that it hauled the main engines all the way to orbit and back, instead of coming down after the fuel was spent on the main, expendable tank.

Yes, SpaceX claimed first versus costs that have been seen by non US launchers such as China, India, Europe and. Russia. And any capabilities that SpaceX would offer that non US launcher cannot or will not offer.

I’m taking values from Wertz’s Space Mission Engineering: The New SMAD, Table 11-23 “Historical Launch Vehicle Costs for Predicting SME-SMAD WBS 2.0 Cost”. This was published in 2011 so it will be using values from the 2010 timeframe. This may not be the most accurate values but it’s the easiest thing for me to grab that has ostensible direct comparisons and at 1032 pages I’m not going to have pulled it off the shelf not to use it. All values are launch cost per kg placed in low earth orbit (LEO) It should be noted that different vehicles launch from different azimuths, and so it isn’t a fully normalized comparison (for instance, if you want a low inclination retrograde orbit, forget using any of the Russian launch vehicles) but it’s about the best to do without running hypothetical flight sims of each vehicle from a common launch point.

For medium/intermediate class vehicles it has European (Ariane 44L at $15.0k/kg), Russian (Dnepr at $4.6k/kg, Soyuz at $7.4k/kg), Chinese (Long March 2C at $9.5k/kg, Long March 2E at $7.4k/kg), and US-ULA (Delta 2 at $14.6k/kg, Atlas 2As at $15.4k/kg). Falcon 9 compares at $5.4k/kg; however, this would be the CRS value based the original F9 vehicle, not the current F9v1.1, and newly manifested launch cost has gone up from from $56M for a 10.5mt payload to LEO to around $63M for at 13,150 kg which would make the cost for that vehicle ~ $4.8k/kg.

On the heavy side, the Ariane 4G costs $12.5k/kg, Atlas 5 and Delta 4 Heavy cost $8.6k/kg and $9.5k/kg respectively, Long March 3B is $6.0k/kg, the Proton just undercuts it at $5.9k/kg, and the Zenit 2 skunks it at $4.2k/kg, while the Sea Launch version of that boaters rises to $7.2k/kg. The recently retired STS caps them all at a whopping $14.2k/kg but should really be considered in a different category since 2/3s of the ostensible payloadable mass is given over to its reentry and thermal protection systems, which means on a mass basis the STS should actually be ~$4.7k/kg with a ~72mt load. (This should beg the question of why the mechanically simpler Space Launch System, which more capacity and utilizing much of the heritage STS systems in its design, is projected to exceed the cost of a Shuttle launch and put its payload to orbit costs in the same range at the Delta 4H. The answer is that it has such a low launch rate and requires a large army of skilled labor to test, integrate, and launch the thing, which underscores my earlier point that the cost reduction should be addressed in minimizing the processing flow cost rather than shooting for reuse of existing technology or any kind of reusability for its own sake.) Falcon Heavy has an advertised cost of $85M for a 53mt payload, giving a $1.6k/kg, seemingly a revolutionary bargain.

Before getting out the checkbook, however, the costs bear some deeper examination. For one, the advertised launch costs were estimates developed prior to launching either SpaceX vehicle. Launch costs on the ULA vehicles (Delta IV, Atlas V) were dramatically undervalued prior to operation and the costs above reflect adjustments after the real operating costs were known. SpaceX has flown the F9v1.1 six times now but they’ve had numerous and likely very costly delays which they’ve eaten, and are still trying to refine their processes to get a streamlined flow that will allow for the kind of launch rates they desire. The Falcon Heavy has yet to fly (the first one is next year) and the both the cost and payload capability are still somewhat in flux.

Second, the costs reflect expected reusability with minimal refurbishment (which Musk has repeatedly stated as a goal). It remains to be seen how practicable that goal will be with the current design, and SpaceX is charging the Air Force a premium to use virgin vehicles with the recovery features (i.e. landing legs) removed.

Third, the “launch costs” advertised by SpaceX are what is known as the manifest price; that is, for that bill you get a rocket vehicle, a standard payload adapter (SpaceX defaults to the EELV Standard Interface Specification but will provide other standard interfaces at a nominal cost or custom payload adapters for a premium), a two phase coupled loads analysis cycle, a 10K (ISO 7) spacecraft integration/encapsulation environment, required horizontal integration, and no payload health and status monitoring or external power. If you want anything else, like a higher cleanroom rating, additional CLA verification cycles, H&S or power, vertical integration, H&S monitoring, supplied power, an ESPA Ring or other secondary payload adapter, payload isolation system, et cetera, you either provide it yourself or pay a premium. If you want simulation data or build “paper” to verify qualification and acceptance in order to perform independent quality and mission assurance, you pay a huge premium and still listen to Gwynne Shotwell harp on endlessly about it.

All of these kinds of costs are already represented in the launch costs of existing vehicles (where they are provided) and some of the difference between US/Ariane and Russian/Chinese launchers are reflected in these capabilities. Now, the argument can be made (and has been made by many in the responsive space arena, including your humble author) that modern spacecraft should be designed to be capable of horizontal integration and should be designed to either be self-damping or tolerant to a reasonable spectrum of vibration loads without requiring payload isolation (e.g. “rocksats”), thus reducing the costs associated with iterative load cycle analysis and all of the tender loving care required from many satellites, but given that the payloads that the F9 and FH are likely to carry will consist largely of multiple payload deployments with complex load paths it probably isn’t completely practical to build and fly rocksats that don’t require some measure of cleanliness and tender loving care beyond the minimum.

The capabilities that SpaceX offers beyond basic launch to orbit are that as a US-based company with a (presumably) EELV-certified launch vehicle they don’t have the kind of International Trafficking in Arms Regulation issues that foreign launch providers (even ones from friendly nations) have, and therefore can carry critical national security and NPR 8507.4 Class A and Class B payloads. Aside from ULA, they’re the only company that is or will in the foreseeable future be certified at this level, provided they are successful in getting EELV and Commercial Crew Transportation Capability (CCtCap). They’re also certified for operation on the US Eastern and Western Ranges by the 45th and 30th Space Wings, and can therefore launch from the major coastal launch sites where existing payload processing facilities and logistical support exists, putting them on equal footing with ULA. And so far they’ve had a good record of launch successes with the Falcon 9 vehicle, albeit with some significant anomalies on nearly every launch that they’re working to address. (This isn’t a bash at SpaceX; teething problems with a new design system are common, and it is actually pretty remarkable that they haven’t experience a loss of vehicle yet.) They also claim multiple restart capability on the Stage 2 Merlin Vac-D engine and long duration (several hours) of coasting time, which makes it fairly comparable (though less efficiently performing due to the use of RP-1 fuel) to the Centaur Upper Stage and Delta Cryogenic Second Stage.

On the other hand, by committing to such a large vehicle SpaceX is going to have to support multiple payload deployment, which is a highly complex operation requiring considerable mission specific customization and analysis. The only unitary payloads that need that kind of capability are the NRO payloads, interplanetary missions, and the big commercial telecom sats. The system is way oversized for smaller Earth imaging and other LEO payloads, which is where some of the smallsat/nanosat launchers like Generation Orbit, Electron, et cetera may come in to offer smallsats a ride to their desired orbit rather than just whatever inclination that a Falcon launch may drop them at. The payload to LEO cost is higher owing to the smaller capability (but still requiring a non-scaling amount of labor) but the desire to maximize science or commercial mission objectives may justify the cost versus tagging along as a secondary payload with no real say in the mission.

Stranger

Can/does gyroscopic stabilization help in routine rocket launches? Could it work in a tail first landing? I can see that the spacecraft returning this way with nearly empty tanks, and the crew and instruments all at the top, would be even more difficult to balance than it is at takeoff.