# Rocky **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 5, 2004, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rocky/238333 "2004-04-05T11:41:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RumMunkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@RumMunkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RumMunkey)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rocky/238333/1 "2004-04-05T11:41:40Z")
He did lose, didn’t he? (…in the original film, I mean) ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rocky/238333/2 "2004-04-05T11:59:15Z")
[SPOILER]Neither Rocky nor Apollo Creed went down for a ten-count so in the absence of a K.O. the winner was awarded by the referee. The ref gave it to Creed, the reigning champ. The crowd favored Rocky. The audience knows Rocky was the real winner. I have always thought that this was pretty classy and a strong point of the film. As the audience (and for Rocky himself) we don’t need outside validation in order to recognize the accomplishment. The official ruling for Apollo Creed against the popular ruling for Rocky is the impetus for the action of Rocky II. Apollo Creed feels his title will always be questioned unless he acheives an undisputed victory against Rocky, thus he challenges Rocky to a rematch.[/SPOILER] Da Da Dun! Da Da Dun! Da Da Dun! Da Da Dun! Da Da Da Da Da Dun! Da Da Da Da Da Da Da Da Dun! ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rocky/238333/3 "2004-04-05T12:19:23Z")
I must break you. ---
**Author:** ![RumMunkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@RumMunkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RumMunkey)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rocky/238333/4 "2004-04-05T12:35:19Z")
That’s what I thought… But I watched it last night and noticed the in-ring announcement wasn’t really all that clear. I was sure he actually lost, and thus was the appeal of the film (the triumph was this every-guy going the distance, not necessarily winning) but last night I noticed the announcement was really muddled and difficult to hear. I began to wonder if, back in it’s original release, it was supposed to be more or less ambiguous. Good movie, really. The one thing that sat a little wrong with me was when Rocky basically raped Adrienne! He all but forces her into his apartment, and refuses to let her leave despite her repeated requests. He even blocks the door at one point so she can’t. Jesus, in this day and age, she would have pressed charges! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rocky/238333/5 "2004-04-05T14:05:47Z")
> [@bienville](#): > > [SPOILER]Neither Rocky nor Apollo Creed went down for a ten-count so in the absence of a K.O. the winner was awarded by the referee. The ref gave it to Creed, the reigning champ. The crowd favored Rocky. The audience knows Rocky was the real winner. > > I have always thought that this was pretty classy and a strong point of the film. As the audience (and for Rocky himself) we don’t need outside validation in order to recognize the accomplishment. > > The official ruling for Apollo Creed against the popular ruling for Rocky is the impetus for the action of Rocky II. Apollo Creed feels his title will always be questioned unless he acheives an undisputed victory against Rocky, thus he challenges Rocky to a rematch.[/SPOILER] Rocky only won one or possibly two rounds in the fight. He lost the fight by a large margin, no one at the fight would have opposed that. There was the knockdown in the first, which didn’t hurt Creed that much, and the last round. In the middle it was all Creed, probably 10-12 rounds for the champ. A stunning final round wasn’t going to overcome that much of a lead. But, his goal wasn’t to get knocked out. Winning wasn’t really his goal, surviving with his dignity intact was. He also makes a point about never having his nose broken, but Creed breaks his nose. The only thing left was going the distance, and in the process gaining respect. As for the rematch, Creed wants to knock Rocky out. No one survived against him like that and delivered so much punishment. The rematch is needed for a number of reasons, but not because people thought Creed stole the fight due to his being champion. ---
**Author:** ![Pashnish\_Ewing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8797f3/32.png) [@Pashnish\_Ewing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pashnish_Ewing)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rocky/238333/6 "2004-04-05T16:03:40Z")
> [@DakotaDog](#): > > That’s what I thought… But I watched it last night and noticed the in-ring announcement wasn’t really all that clear. Although the name the ring announcer says may not be clear, what is clear (IIRC)is that he says “The winner, and still champion…”, which means it’s going to be Creed. I also love that it it obscured by the swelling music fitting for a happy ending. In fact, my favorite thing about boxing is that moment directly after a title fight when the the ring announcer reads the scores. Split decisions are the best. “Ladies and gentleman, we have a split decision (Crowd Cheers). Judge Smith scores it 116-111, Adams (Cecil’s fans go crazy, Cecil acknowledges). Judge Jones ruled 115-113, Zotti (Lil’ Ed’s fans go crazy, Ed acknowledges). And Judge Johnson scored it 115-112 in favor of the winner (beat), and…” And it all comes down to that next word. Either “Still” or “New”. Usually, you can’t even hear the name announced, because the place erupts on “Still” or “New”. I get goose bumps just typing about it. “Where’s your hat?” Pash ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rocky/238333/7 "2004-04-05T16:09:08Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > But, his goal wasn’t to get knocked out. Winning wasn’t really his goal, surviving with his dignity intact was. He also makes a point about never having his nose broken, but Creed breaks his nose. The only thing left was going the distance, and in the process gaining respect. And this is demonstrated in the change of attitude by Creed during the early set up and rounds (in which he plays it for laughs) and his full acknowledgement of cameraderie with Rocky at the end. Creed (in clinch where no one else can hear): “Ain’t gonna be no re-match…ain’t gonna be no re-match.” Rocky: “Don’t want one.” ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rocky/238333/8 "2004-04-05T17:06:22Z")
Am I crazy, or didn’t the ring announcer read the judge’s scores at the end of Balboa-Creed I (as it were)? Or am I confusing it for the end of _Rocky II_? Didn’t Balboa and Creed have a split decision at some point? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rocky/238333/9 "2004-04-05T17:19:17Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > Am I crazy, or didn’t the ring announcer read the judge’s scores at the end of Balboa-Creed I (as it were)? Or am I confusing it for the end of _Rocky II_? > > Didn’t Balboa and Creed have a split decision at some point? The first match was a split decision, with Creed coming out the winner. Rocky won the second match by KO, when they were both knocked down at the same time with only Rocky being able to get up before the 10 count. By the way, why are we using spoilers for a 25 year old movie? Who out there _ **hasn’t** _ seen _Rocky_? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rocky/238333/10 "2004-04-05T17:26:13Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > The first match was a split decision, with Creed coming out the winner. Rocky won the second match by KO, when they were both knocked down at the same time with only Rocky being able to get up before the 10 count. That’s what I thought. So **Telemark’s** comments above don’t make sense – if it was a split decision, Creed couldn’t have dominated the fight. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rocky/238333/11 "2004-04-05T17:28:19Z")
The first Balboa-Creed fight was a split decision in favor of Creed. The camera is on the announcer when he says that it’s a split decision, so there’s no question there. Finally, though it takes some careful listening, you can hear Creed’s name announced as champion at the very very end, while Rocky is hugging Adrian. You have to listen very close to hear the announcement over the music. Winning wasn’t important to Rocky; all he wanted to do was go the distance, which no one had done against Creed before. Going the distance with the champ was his victory. And Creed demanded the rematch in the second movie because, as he said, “I _won_, but I didn’t _beat him_.” ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rocky/238333/12 "2004-04-05T17:51:38Z")
I’m going from old memories, so I guess I got that wrong. I’m surprised it was a split decision, since Creed dominated the fight, especially in the earlier rounds. Rocky basically just took a lot of punishment and got in a few good shots. By the end of the (presumably) 12 round fight, Creed should have won a solid 8-9 rounds, which should have given him an insurmountable lead. But boxing scoring the way it is, who knows. It wouldn’t have been the first time that boxing judges were apparently watching a different fight than the one everyone else saw. IMO, it would have been better as a unanimous decision for Creed. Rocky wasn’t fighting for the title, he was fighting for respect. ---
**Author:** ![AV8R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/898d66/32.png) [@AV8R](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AV8R)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rocky/238333/13 "2004-04-05T18:10:04Z")
> [@](#): > > Finally, though it takes some careful listening, you can hear Creed’s name announced as champion at the very very end, while Rocky is hugging Adrian. You have to listen very close to hear the announcement over the music. I think when the announcement was made, Apollo triumphantly threw his fist into the air, thus visually indicating that he won. The director probably underplayed the announcement for the reason **Max** mentioned. The movie was more about Rocky’s _journeys_ (both with his boxing and with Adrian) than with the resolution of who actually won the match. ---
**Author:** ![Kaitlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/73ab20/32.png) [@Kaitlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaitlyn)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rocky/238333/14 "2004-04-05T18:53:22Z")
The fight was 15 rounds. We don’t really see the middle of the fight, but we do have the announcers saying that Creed is losing momentum, or that things are going more Rocky’s way, or something like that. So we have Rocky winning the first round and the last round, with Creed saved by the bell at the end. Creed was clowning the first part of the fight, and may have lost a round or two he should have won. Max Baer lost the championship by doing just that. The middle rounds we don’t really see. Round 14 could go either way, and Rocky clearly wins 15. That’s three rounds that we see that reasonably could have been Rocky’s. If Rocky gets only 4 or the remaining 12 rounds, he loses 7-8, and if he gets 5 of the remaining 12, he wins 8-7. I don’t think a split decision is implausible. The crowd supporting Rocky at the end doesn’t really indicate a close fight. It’s a hometown crowd, liable to support Rocky at the end even if he lost badly. I think we’re supposed to assume the fight was close; there’s a lot less dramatic tension otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2004, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rocky/238333/15 "2004-04-05T22:13:53Z")
> [@AV8R](#): > > I think when the announcement was made, Apollo triumphantly threw his fist into the air, thus visually indicating that he won. The director probably underplayed the announcement for the reason **Max** mentioned. The movie was more about Rocky’s _journeys_ (both with his boxing and with Adrian) than with the resolution of who actually won the match. There is a shot of Apollo raising his hands in victory in the ending sequence, but it occurs when the announcer reads the decision of the first judge. He doesn’t officially announce the victory by Creed until after Adrian sneaks into the ring and hugs Rocky. ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2004, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/rocky/238333/16 "2004-04-06T07:06:14Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > By the way, why are we using spoilers for a 25 year old movie? 28 year old movie