# "Roe v. Wade" vs. "Roe against Wade" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 26, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393 "2013-01-26T01:57:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![zombywoof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/9e8a1a/32.png) [@zombywoof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zombywoof)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/1 "2013-01-26T01:57:52Z")
The 40th anniversary of the famous US Supreme Court decision legalizing abortion was this week, in the coverage of it most all journalists I’ve heard talking about it referred to the case as “Roe v. Wade”, which I thought was typical when referring to cases of the sort - “Brown v. Board of Education”, “Bush v. Gore”, etc. On NPR I heard an interview with a Yale law professor who repeatedly referred to the case as “Roe against Wade”, which to me sounded quite jarring - but IANAL, and figure she must know what she’s talking about - is this usage more correct? ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/2 "2013-01-26T02:13:41Z")
Well, the v stands for _versus_ which basically is synonymous with “against”. So I suppose, linguistically at least, “Roe against Wade” means the same as “Roe v Wade”. I’ve never seen nor heard it used that way, though. I don’t know if there’s some legalistic specific meaning to _versus_ in this context. Lawyers speak a different language. ---
**Author:** ![Noel\_Prosequi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b19c9b/32.png) [@Noel\_Prosequi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noel_Prosequi)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/3 "2013-01-26T13:12:25Z")
The convention in the English tradition is to say “and” or “against” where the “v” appears. It is one of those Shibboleths that allows us to spot wannabes. 🙂 Thus, Donoghue v Stevenson is pronounced Donoghue and Stevenson. “Against” tends to be reserved for cases where one of the parties has an “and” in its name, like Smith against Fire and All Risks Insurance Co. I don’t know if Americans observe the convention with the same rigour that Commonwealth countries do, but I can imagine that a law professor who might be slightly Anglophile being a stickler about it. I remember being at Uni when Kramer v Kramer was released, and there was a lot of buzz about it. You could immediately spot the law students: they all said “Kramer and Kramer” when everyone else said “versus”. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/4 "2013-01-26T15:01:15Z")
In the U.S., it’s always Roe v. Wade, which is marked down from the original Roe vs. Wade. When the ruling came out, it was standard for newspapers to name court cases with vs. (even in headlines, where space is never wasted). See, for instance, Brown vs. the Board of Education or Plessy vs. Ferguson in newspaper accounts. Legal documents, however, have always used “v.” instead of “vs.” Since 1973, it’s become common to refer to the cases the way lawyers did. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/5 "2013-01-26T15:40:54Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > In the U.S., it’s always Roe v. Wade, which is marked down from the original Roe vs. Wade. The question is about how “Roe v. Wade” is pronounced… ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/6 "2013-01-26T15:59:49Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > The question is about how “Roe v. Wade” is pronounced… Who’s question is about that? Certainly not the OP. For what it’s worth - Roe vee Wade. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/7 "2013-01-26T16:08:11Z")
> [@Noel\_Prosequi](#): > > The convention in the English tradition is to say “and” or “against” where the “v” appears. It is one of those Shibboleths that allows us to spot wannabes. 🙂 This is strange. Any good logician knows that “Roe v Wade” is “Roe or Wade” not “Roe and Wade.” However, a mathematician might argue for “Roe join Wade.” ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/8 "2013-01-26T16:38:46Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > This is strange. Any good logician knows that “Roe v Wade” is “Roe or Wade” not “Roe and Wade.” However, a mathematician might argue for “Roe join Wade.” Well, no doubt it should be “Roe ∧ Wade” but how many newspapers have ∧ in their font set? And how many readers (outside the Straight Dope audience of course) would know how to pronounce that, any more than they know how to pronounce “Row ∨ Wade”? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/9 "2013-01-26T16:56:31Z")
> [@Noel\_Prosequi](#): > > The convention in the English tradition is to say “and” or “against” where the “v” appears. It is one of those Shibboleths that allows us to spot wannabes. 🙂 > > Thus, Donoghue v Stevenson is pronounced Donoghue and Stevenson. “Against” tends to be reserved for cases where one of the parties has an “and” in its name, like Smith against Fire and All Risks Insurance Co. > > I don’t know if Americans observe the convention with the same rigour that Commonwealth countries do, but I can imagine that a law professor who might be slightly Anglophile being a stickler about it. > > I remember being at Uni when Kramer v Kramer was released, and there was a lot of buzz about it. You could immediately spot the law students: they all said “Kramer and Kramer” when everyone else said “versus”. Interesting. I’ve never heard this before. But I don’t hang around much with American lawyers, either. I’m pretty sure I have never heard any commentator use “and” or “against” instead of “vee” or “versus”. If I had heard that Yale law professor, the use of “against” would have stopped me cold. ---
**Author:** ![jbaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jbaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jbaker)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/10 "2013-01-26T17:24:19Z")
A few American lawyers pronounce the \v.\ as “against” or “and” in the English tradition, but most say “vee” or “versus.” The logical term is \v\, not \v.\, even though it is in origin an abbreviation of Latin \vel\, essentially equivalent to the English \and/or\. Latin for the exclusive \or\ is \aut\. Therefore, pronouncing \v.\ as “or” would be incorrect. There is a term in legal Latin, \vel non\, which means “or not.” Since it’s always the exclusive \or\, I’ve always wondered if it shouldn’t be \aut non\. But then, I also wonder if \amicus curiae\ shouldn’t be \amicus curius\. I await clarification by a better Latin scholar. ---
**Author:** ![jbaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jbaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jbaker)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/11 "2013-01-26T17:26:32Z")
Also, maybe somebody can explain why my laboriously entered HTML italicization didn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![J\_Cubed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@J\_Cubed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/J_Cubed)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/12 "2013-01-26T17:30:17Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Who’s question is about that? Certainly not the OP. > > For what it’s worth - Roe vee Wade. That is precisely the question in the op. ---
**Author:** ![standingwave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@standingwave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/standingwave)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/13 "2013-01-26T17:53:02Z")
> [@jbaker](#): > > Also, maybe somebody can explain why my laboriously entered HTML italicization didn’t work. You used angle brackets instead of square brackets? Did it look okay in the preview? Here it is fixed, I think… > [@](#): > > A few American lawyers pronounce the _v._ as “against” or “and” in the English tradition, but most say “vee” or “versus.” > > The logical term is _v_, not _v._, even though it is in origin an abbreviation of Latin _vel_, essentially equivalent to the English _and/or_. Latin for the exclusive _or_ is _aut_. Therefore, pronouncing _v._ as “or” would be incorrect. There is a term in legal Latin, _vel non_, which means “or not.” Since it’s always the exclusive _or_, I’ve always wondered if it shouldn’t be _aut non_. But then, I also wonder if _amicus curiae_ shouldn’t be _amicus curius_. I await clarification by a better Latin scholar. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/14 "2013-01-26T18:39:43Z")
> [@jbaker](#): > > Also, maybe somebody can explain why my laboriously entered HTML italicization didn’t work. We use [vBulletin code](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=7698936#post7698936) on the Dope. Angle brackets are replaced by square brackets, along with a few other differences from HTML. (Mainly, links are introduced by “url=” instead of “a href=”.) ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/15 "2013-01-26T20:32:50Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > This is strange. Any good logician knows that “Roe v Wade” is “Roe or Wade” not “Roe and Wade.” However, a mathematician might argue for “Roe join Wade.” > [@jbaker](#): > > A few American lawyers pronounce the \v.\ as “against” or “and” in the English tradition, but most say “vee” or “versus.” > > The logical term is \v\, not \v.\, even though it is in origin an abbreviation of Latin \vel\, essentially equivalent to the English \and/or\. Latin for the exclusive \or\ is \aut\. Therefore, pronouncing \v.\ as “or” would be incorrect. There is a term in legal Latin, \vel non\, which means “or not.” Since it’s always the exclusive \or\, I’ve always wondered if it shouldn’t be \aut non\. But then, I also wonder if \amicus curiae\ shouldn’t be \amicus curius\. I await clarification by a better Latin scholar. _v._, of course, is not the logical / but the abbreviation for the English word versus, borrowed from the homonymous Latin past participle with a meaning of “overturned” – that being what the plaintiff is praying the court to do with the state of affairs where the defendant is unconvicted of crime or the respondent remains in possession of money, land, or goods the plaintiff claims are rightfully his. Though I’m sure you’re aware of this, I thought in view of the symbolic-logic excurus it needed repeating. _Amicus curiae_ is of course “friend of the court”, i.e., someone submitting a brief in the interest of justice to provide the court with information it would not have available without the brief. \*Curiae \*is the genitive of _curia_, “court”. I don’t think there is a Latin adjective _curius_. ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/16 "2013-01-26T20:48:32Z")
Shortening ‘vs’ to ‘v’? Sure, why not. Pronouncing ‘v’ as ‘vee’? Egads that’s stupid. It’s not a middle initial, its an abbreviation for a common word. Go the extra emm and stay the friggin’ correct word! It’s not even taking away a full ess of your life to do so. ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/17 "2013-01-26T22:18:23Z")
> [@Noel\_Prosequi](#): > > The convention in the English tradition is to say “and” or “against” where the “v” appears. It is one of those Shibboleths that allows us to spot wannabes. 🙂 > > Thus, Donoghue v Stevenson is pronounced Donoghue and Stevenson. “Against” tends to be reserved for cases where one of the parties has an “and” in its name, like Smith against Fire and All Risks Insurance Co. I’m pretty sure I recall being taught that it is “and” in civil cases and “against” in criminal cases. You never say V under any circumstances or all the other lawyers will laugh at you and give you wedgies ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/18 "2013-01-26T22:49:03Z")
> [@J\_Cubed](#): > > That is precisely the question in the op. Really? > [@](#): > > On NPR I heard an interview with a Yale law professor who repeatedly referred to the case as “Roe against Wade”, which to me sounded quite jarring - but IANAL, and figure she must know what she’s talking about - is this usage more correct? Does “usage” mean “pronunciation” in your language? v vs against does not seem to be a pronunciation issue. It’s a usage issue (as specifically mentioned). ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/19 "2013-01-26T23:03:30Z")
NPR is an audio medium, not print, so what the OP was hearing was the pronunciation, not the spelling. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/20 "2013-01-26T23:39:47Z")
[I asked about “v” and “vs” in this old thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=520119). [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393.md?page=2)