# "Roe v. Wade" vs. "Roe against Wade" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 26, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393 "2013-01-26T01:57:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/21 "2013-01-26T23:55:12Z")
Most news stories (yeah, yeah, the lamestream media) say “vee.” Roe vee Wade. Many say “versus,” but not quite as many. You also sometimes hear “Roe,” simple as simple can be. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/22 "2013-01-27T00:49:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > NPR is an audio medium, not print, so what the OP was hearing was the pronunciation, not the spelling. Read the damn OP. Are you seriously suggesting that the OP is asking about the difference in pronunciation between “vee” (or even “versus”) and “against”? Really? ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/23 "2013-01-27T01:10:55Z")
He’s asking about whether the case Roe v. Wade is more correctly pronounced/spoken _Roe against Wade_ than pronounced/spoken _Roe vee wade_ or _Roe versus Wade_. It has come out in this thread that even written as “Roe v. Wade”, it may still be pronounced _Roe against Wade_. I didn’t know that, and I’d wager the OP had never heard of that before either. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/24 "2013-01-27T01:19:08Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > He’s asking about whether the case Roe v. Wade is more correctly pronounced/spoken _Roe against Wade_ than pronounced/spoken _Roe vee wade_ or _Roe versus Wade_. It has come out in this thread that even written as “Roe v. Wade”, it may still be pronounced _Roe against Wade_. Is that really a pronunciation issue? Do British lawyers really think “v.” is pronounced “against”? Or is it that their tradition is that legal cases are referred to verbally in a particular way and written in a different way? I mean I prefer to call it Roe “go fuck yourself” Wade. Is that a pronunciation issue? ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/25 "2013-01-27T01:30:37Z")
Sure, why not? Do you have a better word you’d prefer to use? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/26 "2013-01-27T03:05:56Z")
They don’t just think it’s pronounced that way; it really is pronounced that way. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/27 "2013-01-27T03:39:55Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > They don’t just think it’s pronounced that way; it really is pronounced that way. So how do they pronounce “vs.” when not used for legal cases? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/28 "2013-01-27T04:21:03Z")
Well, _I_ pronounce it “Roe throatwarbler-mangrove Wade.” (Somebody was going to say it eventually; it might as well be me.) ---
**Author:** ![obfusciatrist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/4af34b/32.png) [@obfusciatrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/obfusciatrist)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/29 "2013-01-27T04:32:12Z")
On the original “Roe against Wade” question, in searching around I found this transcript of Harry Blackmun for some oral history project. Throughout he says it as “roe against wade”: [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/supremecourt/blackmun/blackmun\_on\_roe.pdf](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/nation/supremecourt/blackmun/blackmun_on_roe.pdf) Linda Greenhouse (the person who was speaking in the NPR interview referenced by the OP) was a Supreme Court reporter for the New York Times for 30 years before retiring and moving over to Yale. No idea why he and she say it that way since I don’t think either of them are particularly influenced by English legal vocabulary. But maybe. ---
**Author:** ![Noel\_Prosequi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b19c9b/32.png) [@Noel\_Prosequi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noel_Prosequi)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/30 "2013-01-27T04:42:27Z")
**Zakalwe** , do you mean like a Broncos v Packers football game? Versus, unless the professional habit causes a slip of the tongue. And the issue is not whether “v” is pronounced “and” or “against”. The “v” is printers’ shorthand in the case books, against a background where readers are supposed to know what to say out loud. There’s plenty of those. The books will print “Ormerod LJ”, but any lawyer who cites him in that way will get a kick in the pants. You _say_ “His Lordship Lord Justice Ormerod”. In the CW, in criminal matters, the formal party in the case title is always the Crown or the DPP, and there are often multiple defendants. That may be why the habit has grown to say “against” in criminal cases - _R v Smith and Brown_, if pronounced “The Queen and Smith and Brown”, could lead to a moment’s confusion. In some places the habit is growing to simply cite the defendant’s name or names because citing the prosecuting authority is superfluous. Of course, in the US, that is not so in Supreme Court cases where the particular state is cited as a party, so I suspect just citing the defendant loses actual information. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/31 "2013-01-27T04:52:28Z")
In American jurisprudence, pronouncing the “v.” as “vee,” “versus,” and “against” are all correct and common, with “against” being less known by laypersons and more popular among scholars. “And” is not correct in American terminology, but is usual in England. The first time I heard a lecture by an English legal scholar, I was completely confused by his use of “and” in this context and . I got all the citations wrong. In non-legal contexts, like sports, the correct abbreviation is “vs.,” which is pronounced “versus.” My understanding is that in scholarly circles it was once considered standard to pronounce all Latin abbreviations by their English meanings, rather than by reading the abbreviation as spelled, so, i.e.= “that is,” e.g. = “for example,” and thus “v.” = “against.” ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2013, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/32 "2013-01-27T12:45:36Z")
> [@Noel\_Prosequi](#): > > **Zakalwe** , do you mean like a Broncos v Packers football game? > > Versus, unless the professional habit causes a slip of the tongue. > > And the issue is not whether “v” is pronounced “and” or “against”. > > The “v” is printers’ shorthand in the case books, against a background where readers are supposed to know what to say out loud. There’s plenty of those. The books will print “Ormerod LJ”, but any lawyer who cites him in that way will get a kick in the pants. You _say_ “His Lordship Lord Justice Ormerod”. Okay, this makes much more sense to me. It’s not that “v.” is pronounced “against”, it’s that “against” is _printed_ “v”. Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Downtown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Mr\_Downtown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Downtown)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/33 "2013-01-28T04:52:10Z")
One of my law school professors (Univ. of Texas 1982) expressed his opinion that “v” was grating and uncivilized, and asked us to instead say “versus” or “against.” However, I don’t recall that any of my classmates changed their habits outside his class. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/34 "2013-01-28T05:45:29Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > NPR is an audio medium, not print, so what the OP was hearing was the pronunciation, not the spelling. Well, then I’m really confused about how I’m processing all those articles over at [NPR.org](http://NPR.org). ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/35 "2013-01-28T11:33:55Z")
In my nearly three years of law school, I have heard “vee” or “versus” but never “against.” ---
**Author:** ![J\_Cubed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c6cbf5/32.png) [@J\_Cubed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/J_Cubed)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/36 "2013-01-28T14:37:05Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > Well, then I’m really confused about how I’m processing all those articles over at [NPR.org](http://NPR.org). You may be reading transcripts or written adaptations of radio stories. The OP specifically mentioned hearing the story on NPR, the national public radio syndicator. Radio is technically a subset of the electromagnetic spectrum with a frequency much lower than visible light, but in common American usage, it generally refers to audio-only broadcasts that are transmitted via those radio waves. ---
**Author:** ![jbaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jbaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jbaker)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/37 "2013-01-28T15:07:27Z")
My thanks to standingwave and Exapno Mapcase for their explanations. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/38 "2013-01-28T16:32:50Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > In my nearly three years of law school, I have heard “vee” or “versus” but never “against.” One member of the panel in my 1L oral argument kept referring to cases that way. I knew what he meant, but it sounded horribly affected coming from a non-Commonwealth lawyer. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/39 "2013-01-28T16:42:38Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > One member of the panel in my 1L oral argument kept referring to cases that way. I knew what he meant, but it sounded horribly affected coming from a non-Commonwealth lawyer. I don’t know why it would sound strange, affected, or foreign. When I was in law school in the 1990s, “against” was less popular than “v.” or “versus,” but it was common enough to be unremarkable. And these days I spend a lot of time listening to the nation’s top legal scholars, practitioners, and jurists speaking, and “against” is a solid–again, if third place–part of American legal usage. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393/40 "2013-01-28T20:50:13Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Read the damn OP. Are you seriously suggesting that the OP is asking about the difference in pronunciation between “vee” (or even “versus”) and “against”? Really? Yes, really. Let’s look at the OP (bolding mine): > [@zombywoof](#): > > The 40th anniversary of the famous US Supreme Court decision legalizing abortion was this week, in the coverage of it most all journalists I’ve **heard** talking about it referred to the case as “Roe v. Wade”, which I thought was typical when referring to cases of the sort - “Brown v. Board of Education”, “Bush v. Gore”, etc. > > On NPR I **heard** an interview with a Yale law professor who repeatedly referred to the case as “Roe against Wade”, which to me **sounded** quite jarring - but IANAL, and figure she must know what she’s talking about - is this usage more correct? I don’t know how much clearer the OP could get - he was asking about the pronunciation. > [@Zakalwe](#): > > Okay, this makes much more sense to me. It’s not that “v.” is pronounced “against”, it’s that “against” is _printed_ “v”. Interesting. Not really - it’s usually printed as “Roe v. Wade,” sometimes as “Roe vs. Wade.” The question is how to say this when speaking. Some people say “vee,” some people say “versus,” but neither the OP nor I had ever heard anyone say “against” until that NPR interview. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-v-wade-vs-roe-against-wade/648393.md?page=3)