# Roe vs. Wade's Dirty Little Secret **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 12, 2003, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-vs-wades-dirty-little-secret/168242 "2003-04-12T12:06:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-vs-wades-dirty-little-secret/168242/41 "2003-04-13T00:28:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Razorsharp \* > \*\*I’m getting tired, would someone please help me on this one? \*\* Anything for you. Women who give their kids up for adoption are not “abandoning” their children. Women who drop off their children at a hospital are not “abandoning” their children. Women who put their kids in dumpsters or who have no intention of caring for their child at all are the ones who “abandon” them, and abandoning your child is against the law and subject to severe penalties. I think I may have confused you by using the term the way it is meant to be used as opposed to your interpretation. Your constant misuse of words to make a political points leads to problems communicating and makes me wonder if you are even interested in debate. No wonder you got lost. ---
**Author:** ![Maximum\_C](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b77776/32.png) [@Maximum\_C](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maximum_C)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-vs-wades-dirty-little-secret/168242/42 "2003-04-13T00:34:47Z")
Don’t be a wanker, **Hamlet**. Razor is smart, even if he is advocating a slightly mysoginist stance. -C ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-vs-wades-dirty-little-secret/168242/43 "2003-04-13T05:31:17Z")
Just out of curiosity, shouldn’t a man be expected to _prove_ that was the source of the sperm for the pregancy in question? What if the woman simply denies that he’s the guy that knocked her up. What then? How do you prove otherwise? What’s to stop any asshole off the street from claiming he’s the “father” of any woman’s pregnancy. Also, as **maximum C** points out, how do you break a stalemate? ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-vs-wades-dirty-little-secret/168242/44 "2003-04-13T06:52:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Just out of curiosity, shouldn’t a man be expected to _prove_ that was the source of the sperm for the pregancy in question? What if the woman simply denies that he’s the guy that knocked her up. What then? How do you prove otherwise? What’s to stop any asshole off the street from claiming he’s the “father” of any woman’s pregnancy. > > Also, as **maximum C** points out, how do you break a stalemate? \*\* [my way](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=168178) > [@](#): > > IF DNA profiling was required on all children, in 20 years or so it would be possible to determine paternity with only the child since the parental DNA profiles would already be on file. Hell with enough computer power you might be able to find out who IS the father by checking baby against the men in the DB. The thread gets a little messy but I think I made a decent case. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-vs-wades-dirty-little-secret/168242/45 "2003-04-13T07:06:10Z")
Allow me to chime in with **Razorsharp** , **Stoid** , **catsix** , and **Blalron** in support of “opt out”, the “male abortion”, or whatever you want to call it: the idea that men should be able to decide whether they want to support a child, rather than being at the mercy of the woman’s choice. Unfortunately, I doubt this debate will be very different from the last one, or the one before that, or the one before that… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-vs-wades-dirty-little-secret/168242/46 "2003-04-13T07:18:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by drachillix \* > \*\*[my way](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=168178) > > The thread gets a little messy but I think I made a decent case. \*\* I’m talking about _during_ pregnancy, not afterwards, and specifically in cases where a man wants to force a woman to have a baby against her will when she wants to get an abortion. As for the “opt out,” no way, man. Men are responsible for their own sperm. If you don’t want to have a kid with a woman. don’t stick your dick in her. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-vs-wades-dirty-little-secret/168242/47 "2003-04-13T07:56:21Z")
But, on the other hand, why should the mere fact that a mans sperm fertilized the egg obligate him to do anything? Who knows where the sperm came from or whether it was even obtained by honest means? ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-vs-wades-dirty-little-secret/168242/48 "2003-04-13T10:08:51Z")
I know more than one man that has been duped into thinking he’s having protected sex. I know at least 2 that have kids because of it. Don’t think for a minute that all women are wonderous caregivers. One of those men was surprised, 6 years after the fact, with a letter stating that he was the father, and would begin paying child support immediately. I think men should have an “opt out” option, just like woment do, but there needs to be accountability on both parts. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-vs-wades-dirty-little-secret/168242/49 "2003-04-13T14:46:50Z")
## [QUOTE] quote: ## In Texas, both at common law and under the statutes of the State, the natural father has a continuing and primary duty to support his legitimate children See Lane v. Phillips, 69 Tex. 240, 243, 6 S. W. 610, 611 (1887); Tex. Fam. Code 4.02 (1970) (husband’s duty). 1 That duty extends even beyond dissolution of the marriage, > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > **There’s nothing about a “marriage contract” in that passage. Its about duty to support ones own children.** No, it just speaks of “legitimate children” and “dissolution of the marriage”. Two things found within the “marriage contract”. Sheesh… the use of semantics does not make a valid rebuttal. > [@](#): > > \*\*We can throw the idea of marriage contracts out of the window because its not relevant to the government interests being advanced. \*\* To Hell with government interests. Supposedly, in America, the individual is of paramount importance. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Maximum C_ > **Don’t be a wanker, Hamlet. Razor is smart, even if he is advocating a slightly mysoginist stance.** Thanks, I think. Now, your liberal side is beginning to show. One of the tactics liberals use to squelch thought that runs contradictory to the liberal ideology, is to label the “offender” with a label that conveys a negative connotation. As those who may oppose “affirmative action” are often branded as “racist”, Maximum C brands me a mysoginist for my unappologetic expose of the fallacy and hypocrisy of what is misappropriately termed “freedom of choice”. > [@](#): > > \*\*Razor, I’m all for legal genderblindness, but this is an issue where that just isn’t possible. The law has to treat the partner carrying the baby differently because… SHE’S GOT A DAMN BABY IN HER BELLY FOR NINE MONTHS. > > If you’re argument is, at base, that it’s not fair to make men and women take equal responsiblity for the baby but then give woman controlling power over abortion… well… see #1. Tough luck, that’s biology. Just thank your lucky stars you don’t bleed and cramp up every month.\*\* Oh, here we go with what I call “Victimization Feminism”. First, if “SHE’S GOT A DAMN BABY IN HER BELLY FOR NINE MONTHS”, it’s there because that is the “choice” that she made. Yeah, and you can count your lucky stars that you get to live about ten years longer than the average man. > [@](#): > > ## _Originally posted by SciFiSam_ quote: > > ## If an unwed mother deliveres a child, there is no law requiring her to name the father. If she wishes, she can raise “her” child by herself. It’s her “choice”. > > \*\*Unless the unwed mother needs to claim welfare. \*\* Right and here, again, is another example of where the man is beholden to the “choice” of the woman. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-vs-wades-dirty-little-secret/168242/50 "2003-04-13T14:55:50Z")
> [@](#): > > **Maximum C** said: > So dont we want to force him to accept equal responsibility in this area? Nope, ‘we’ don’t. Responsibility such as that shouldn’t be forced upon anyone, whether they’re a woman or a man. Women are already exempt from being ‘forced to take responsibility’ (that always sounds like enduring their punishment), and men should be as well. > [@](#): > > Just thank your lucky stars you don’t bleed and cramp up every month. I wonder how many men would be happy to go through menstruation if it never meant that someone else could never saddle them with being a parent when they don’t want to be or paying child support for 18+ years to a woman who chose unilaterally to have a kid and raise that kid all by herself with nobody’s help but lots of his money. I have met women who have bragged about how much money they were getting in child support from guys, about how it better be enough for them to live on because they certainly were not going to get a job, about filing for Protection From Abuse orders under false pretenses (as in against someone who had never been violent to them) thus screwing the guy out of his money, making sure he could never take the kid away, and screwing over a few other rights of his to boot. My opinion is that if a woman chooses to have a child and support it, especially knowing that the man in question does not want to have a child, her decision to be a single mother and raise that child on her own means exactly that - raise the child **on her own.** And raising a child on her own does not involve someone else’s money which she can forcibly take away from him, ruin his credit, garnish his paycheck and have him sent to prison if he doesn’t cough up enough cash. That is not a just situation. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-vs-wades-dirty-little-secret/168242/51 "2003-04-13T16:59:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*I’m talking about _during_ pregnancy, not afterwards, and specifically in cases where a man wants to force a woman to have a baby against her will when she wants to get an abortion. Hmm…is there enough fluid to safely do a match off of amniotic fluid in the first trimester? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-vs-wades-dirty-little-secret/168242/52 "2003-04-13T17:01:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tristan \* > \*\*I know more than one man that has been duped into thinking he’s having protected sex. I know at least 2 that have kids because of it. > > Don’t think for a minute that all women are wonderous caregivers. > > One of those men was surprised, 6 years after the fact, with a letter stating that he was the father, and would begin paying child support immediately. > > I think men should have an “opt out” option, just like woment do, but there needs to be accountability on both parts. \*\* It’s the man’s responsibility to protect_himself_, not to take a woman’s word for anything, especially a woman he does not intend to have a relationship with. Nobody is forcing these guys to fuck anybody. When a man has sex with a woman, he _knows_ that pregnancy is a potential result, and he _knows_ that he’ll have to take responsibilty for any children which are produced by that pregnancy. He is _accepting_ that risk every time he has sex. Sex has _consequences_. If you can’t deal with the consequences, don’t have sex. What about a scenario wher a man tells a woman he loves her and wants to have a child with her. She gets pregnant. Three months into the pregnancy, the guy starts porking another woman and he _then_ decides that he wants to “opt out” of the first relationship and any responsibility for the child? Is that OK? If we say that’s _not_ ok, for a guy to change his mind , then how do we prove which guys are mind-changers and which ones sincerely never wanted a kid? What’s to stop every woman from claiming that “he said he _wanted_ a baby?” How do we prove otherwise? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-vs-wades-dirty-little-secret/168242/53 "2003-04-13T17:22:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by drachillix \* > \*\*Hmm…is there enough fluid to safely do a match off of amniotic fluid in the first trimester? \*\* pre-natal DNA testing of amniotic fluid can be done at ten weeks. However it is _not_ typically done or recommended for simple paternity tests, because it is highly invasive and poses a significant risk to the woman and the fetus. It’s a test that is only recommended for compelling medical reasons. Non invasive DNA testing of fetal cells in maternal blood can be done in the second trimester, but 90% of abortions are done in the first trimester. Also, delaying abortions until the second trimester would usually necessitate an intact D&E procedure (the so-called “partial-birth” abortion") which most pro-lifers hate like poison. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-vs-wades-dirty-little-secret/168242/54 "2003-04-13T17:29:36Z")
I should have said that the _extraction_ of amniotic fluid is done for medical reasons. The DNA testing of said fluid is incidental. It’s the extraction of fluid that’s risky. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-vs-wades-dirty-little-secret/168242/55 "2003-04-13T19:33:21Z")
> [@](#): > > When a man has sex with a woman, he knows that pregnancy is a potential result, and he knows that he’ll have to take responsibilty for any children which are produced by that pregnancy. What a woman has sex with a man, she knows that pregnancy is a potential result, and she knows that should have to take sole responsibility for any children which are produced by that pregnancy, which she carried of her own free will. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-vs-wades-dirty-little-secret/168242/56 "2003-04-13T19:41:42Z")
No, she has _equal_ responsibility with the man that knocked her up. I can’t believe we’re even deabating the legitimization of fathers abandoning their children. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-vs-wades-dirty-little-secret/168242/57 "2003-04-13T20:07:45Z")
Women can “abandon” their children by putting them up for adoption. ---
**Author:** ![WaryEri](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ea666f/32.png) [@WaryEri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WaryEri)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-vs-wades-dirty-little-secret/168242/58 "2003-04-13T20:08:50Z")
Count me in with allowing men to opt out, too. If I can’t be forced to give 18 years to a baby, then neither should the father. But if he opts out, he opts out for good and gets no say in that baby’s life anymore. No coming after the mother with a lawyer 10 years hence saying he wants visitation rights, no holding her back from moving across the country or to another country because he changes his mind and wants to be a daddy. No take backs. He has no more right to have any part in the child’s life. Of course, if this is “male abortion”, it’s perfectly reasonable to keep things completely equal. You either opt out before the baby is born, or you are a father. You don’t get to change your mind 6 years down the road. I’m sure there are still any numbers of problems with this scenario, but my sense of fairness tells me that if my right to an abortion remains protected, he shouldn’t be any more obligated than I am to deal with the consequences of an unintended pregnancy. ---
**Author:** ![candida](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f14d63/32.png) [@candida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/candida)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-vs-wades-dirty-little-secret/168242/59 "2003-04-13T20:21:30Z")
Weird paranoia thread this, or else I’m not keyed into the zeitgeist? Whatever happened to girl/boy, live together, work out the incompatabilities . . . . ? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-vs-wades-dirty-little-secret/168242/60 "2003-04-13T20:35:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > \*\*Women can “abandon” their children by putting them up for adoption. \*\* Putting a child up for adoption is not “abandoment” it’s taking responsibilty. Please don’t compare it to some scumbag who doesn’t want to pay child support. Can one of you pro “opt-out” people please address this question that I asked a little while ago: > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by me_ > **What about a scenario where a man tells a woman he loves her and wants to have a child with her. She gets pregnant. Three months into the pregnancy, the guy starts porking another woman and he then decides that he wants to “opt out” of the first relationship and any responsibility for the child? Is that OK?** Anyone…? Anyone…? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-vs-wades-dirty-little-secret/168242.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roe-vs-wades-dirty-little-secret/168242.md?page=4)