# Roger Clemens: greatest pitcher since WW II? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 26, 2003, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-clemens-greatest-pitcher-since-ww-ii/177567 "2003-05-26T13:18:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-clemens-greatest-pitcher-since-ww-ii/177567/41 "2003-05-27T09:45:17Z")
But the ERA itself would indicate the discrepancy. In the first example, one run in nine innings is 1.00; in the second, the pitcher is 1-0 with an ERA of 7.50. ---
**Author:** ![NYR407](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bbe5ce/32.png) [@NYR407](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NYR407)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-clemens-greatest-pitcher-since-ww-ii/177567/42 "2003-05-27T13:50:43Z")
Has anyone taken into consideration the use of the DH? It can be looked at as an advantage and a disadvantage to AL pitchers. Advantge: Intimidation factor (see Clemens). I believe that if Clemens had to bat and face repercussions for pitching inside he may have been less effective. Of course this is only a theory. Disadvantage: An extra bat in the line up that isn’t an automatic out. Do these cancel each other out? My vote is for Seaver. Hey, I’m a Mets fan so what do you expect. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-clemens-greatest-pitcher-since-ww-ii/177567/43 "2003-05-27T14:52:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bob Cos \* > \*\*Really? I’m curious, why do you think this? I think of Carlton as being in the same league as Clemens and Seaver–perhaps not quite as great, but a notch or two above pitchers like Roberts or Ryan (both of whom I admire). 329 wins, 4 Cy Youngs, 4136 K’s…again, just curious… \*\* Carlton’s a funny case because he had great years interspersed with just-okay years, and he held on logner than eh should have. But I would definitely class him with Roberts and Ryan, not Seaver and Clemens, on his career overall: Seaver: 311-205, 127 ERA+ Clemens: 293-151, 142 ERA+ Carlton: 329-244, 115 ERA+ Roberts: 286-245, 113 ERA+ Ryan: 324-292, 112 ERA+ Carlton’s a little better than the two R’s but is clearly a lot closer to them than to Roberts or Ryan. In terms of peak value, I would say Carlton’s impressive four-Cy-Young-Award peak is better than Ryan’s but is really no better than Roberts’s tremendous peak run in the 50s. Had there been a Cy Young Award then, Roberts would have won it in 1952 for sure, and probably in 1955 as well. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-clemens-greatest-pitcher-since-ww-ii/177567/44 "2003-05-27T15:28:23Z")
Well, Seaver and Clemens are definitely the best pitchers I’ve seen. There have been a few who were better for a year, or even a few years at a time, but none who were as good over the long haul. Seaver’s stats were a little better than Clemens’, but I still give Clemens the edge for two reasons: 1. Clemens spent most of his career in the ultimate hitter’s park (Fenway) while Seaver spent most of his career in the ultimate pitcher’s park (Shea). 2. Clemens has always been an A.L. pitcher, while Seaver was mostly an N.L. pitcher, whcih means Seaver got to pad his strikeout record by pitching to other pitchers. ---
**Author:** ![Susanann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7ab992/32.png) [@Susanann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Susanann)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-clemens-greatest-pitcher-since-ww-ii/177567/45 "2003-05-27T15:29:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\* [hijack] I always find the W-L records to be a bit deceiving. I certainly enjoyed watching McLain get his 31 wins, but I also recall that many of his wins were of the 5-2 or 7-3 variety while, in 1968, Mickey Lolich “only” got 17 wins, (to McLain’s 22), but most of his losses were of the 1-0 variety. In other words, McLain got better offensive support than Lolich did and I’m not sure how that can/should be reconciled with the total statistics. (After all, Lolich almost single-handedly took the 1968 Series away from Bob Gibson–even hitting to help the team–while McLain simply could not pull it together for the Series.) > [/hijack] \*\* No. McLain had an era of 1.96 versus Lolich’s 3.19, McLain had 6 shutouts with 28 complete games, and 336 innings pitched, versus Lolich’s 4 shutouts and only 8 complete games 220 innings pitched(he was taken out a lot). Lolich batted .110 lifetime versus Mclain batted .133 lifetime. Lolich won more world series games, because it was McLain!!! who did not get any run support. When Denny lost the 2 games in the world series, the Tigers didnt score at all in one game, and only scored 1 run in Denny’s other loss, with the tigers only getting 5 hits in each of Denny’s losses. I think you are getting those two mixed up. ( by the way, Denny is out of prison again. I talked to him last week, he is doing fine, he looks good, and he still has his great sense of humor) ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-clemens-greatest-pitcher-since-ww-ii/177567/46 "2003-05-27T16:48:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > \*\*Carlton’s a funny case because he had great years interspersed with just-okay years, and he held on logner than eh should have. \*\*Yes, he did. > [@](#): > > \*\*In terms of peak value, I would say Carlton’s impressive four-Cy-Young-Award peak is better than Ryan’s but is really no better than Roberts’s tremendous peak run in the 50s. Had there been a Cy Young Award then, Roberts would have won it in 1952 for sure, and probably in 1955 as well. \*\* Not a bad argument. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Davebear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bcef8e/32.png) [@Davebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Davebear)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-clemens-greatest-pitcher-since-ww-ii/177567/47 "2003-05-27T23:05:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dantheman \* > \*\*Well, with all due respect… Dan Duquette screwed up the Clemens situation, thereby making him not want to be there, anyway. He said Clemens was washed up. \*\* No, actually, _with all due respect_, it was Clemens’ big mouth that screwed it up. Duquette, who was a dickhead, no question, simply got sick of the bellyaching, like most of the fans had long since done. If you weren’t living here, you didn’t hear all of that. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wilson \* > \*\*Ah, the well-reasoned, thoughtful Boston fans! \*\* LOL! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![dantheman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dantheman/32/9421_2.png) [@dantheman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dantheman)\ **Post date:** [May 27, 2003, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-clemens-greatest-pitcher-since-ww-ii/177567/48 "2003-05-27T23:33:06Z")
Duquette was widely quoted as saying Clemens was washed up, that he was in the “twilight of his career.” [http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/mcadam\_sean/1558838.html?contentType=Columnist](http://espn.go.com/mlb/columns/mcadam_sean/1558838.html?contentType=Columnist) Also: > [@](#): > > In addressing Clemens’ departure, Duquette wrote, “During the last part of Roger’s tenure with the Sox, I got the feeling that the intense pressure of being the most high-profile player for so many years in the boiling cauldron that is baseball in Boston was weighing heavily on Roger and he wanted to move along.” > > \*\*Not so, said Clemens, who stated that he would have preferred to remain in Boston but that Duquette made his decision to leave easy. \*\* (from [http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside\_game/tom\_verducci/news/2003/05/27/insider/](http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/tom_verducci/news/2003/05/27/insider/)) Duquette gave up on him. He didn’t think Clemens would have many more - if any - good seasons, so he publicly bad mouthed him to make him want to leave. And he did. Please cite examples where Clemens was “bellyaching” - beyond, of course, what most ballplayers do anyway. ---
**Author:** ![ElwoodCuse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/edb3f5/32.png) [@ElwoodCuse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElwoodCuse)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-clemens-greatest-pitcher-since-ww-ii/177567/49 "2003-05-29T15:50:04Z")
I’m going to stick up for Koufax the way I did for Ken Dryden the other day in a discussion about if Patrick Roy was the greatest goalie ever. In terms of numbers, it’s hard to make the case for Koufax or Dryden because of their short careers (Dryden quit hockey to go to law school and Koufax quit because of arm trouble). Yes, the longevity of some people gives them impressive numbers, but I think if you instead asked something like “If you had to win one game, who would you want playing for you?” the answer might be different. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-clemens-greatest-pitcher-since-ww-ii/177567.md?page=2)