# Roger Stone says Koch gave Romney $100 million to name Ryan **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 25, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-stone-says-koch-gave-romney-100-million-to-name-ryan/632620 "2012-08-25T17:08:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-stone-says-koch-gave-romney-100-million-to-name-ryan/632620/21 "2012-08-26T22:11:45Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > One thing I find heroic is when someone sacrifices his own interests to see to someone else’s. Even if the Koch’s did create 100,000 jobs, it has been in the service of enriching themselves. There’s nothing noble about it. > > Real heroes don’t line their own pockets. :rolleyes: I suppose you think the Koch brothers should have grown their business out of the goodness of their hearts instead of for their own profit? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-stone-says-koch-gave-romney-100-million-to-name-ryan/632620/22 "2012-08-26T22:12:51Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That they **can,** yes. Do you feel the same way about George Soros and unions giving so much to Democrats and their causes? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-stone-says-koch-gave-romney-100-million-to-name-ryan/632620/23 "2012-08-26T22:22:36Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > :rolleyes: > > I suppose you think the Koch brothers should have grown their business out of the goodness of their hearts instead of for their own profit? Not at all. They saw opportunities and took advantage of them. Good for them. I just don’t think they should be lionized as public benefactors for having done so. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-stone-says-koch-gave-romney-100-million-to-name-ryan/632620/24 "2012-08-26T22:24:04Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Excuse me? The Kochs are great Americans who have directly created almost 100,000 jobs at their company alone. I love that on this board, great american heroes are denigrated because they exercise their first amendment rights, while men like Barack Obama that traffic in lies and false promises to sell the American people policies they don’t want and don’t need are held up as paragons of virtue. When judging opinions, I personally think it’s very helpful to keep in mind, to never forget, that Martin Hyde not only thinks that [homosexuals are mentally ill](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15349175&postcount=345), he was one of the bigoted bullies who drove our [beloved Sampiro away from the Dope](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15348793&postcount=328). > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Business leaders deserve almost 100% of all credit for why America became the most powerful and wealthiest country in the world. In general I agree, though I’d like to know what percentage you think the workers had to contribute. Not that there isn’t plenty one can criticize about the old-timey moguls, it’s pretty well-known that most of the largest business leaders in American history were also philanthropists of one type or another ([John D. Rockefeller](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Rockefeller#Philanthropy), [Aaron Montgomery Ward](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Montgomery_Ward#Public_Life:_The_Fight_for_Grant_Park), [Henry Ford](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ford), for instance. [Cornelius Vanderbilt](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelius_Vanderbilt#Death_and_legacy) built a railroad system that’s still in use today. What legacy will the Koch Brothers leave behind? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-stone-says-koch-gave-romney-100-million-to-name-ryan/632620/25 "2012-08-26T22:32:31Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I suppose you think the Koch brothers should have grown their business out of the goodness of their hearts instead of for their own profit? Of course they should have done it for their own interests. And there is nothing inherently wrong with that. It doesn’t make them bad. But doesn’t make then ‘great’ or ‘heroic’ either. I think we all need to keep a little perspective here. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-stone-says-koch-gave-romney-100-million-to-name-ryan/632620/26 "2012-08-26T22:44:37Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > One thing I find heroic is when someone sacrifices his own interests to see to someone else’s. Even if the Koch’s did create 100,000 jobs, it has been in the service of enriching themselves. There’s nothing noble about it. > > Real heroes don’t line their own pockets. Please explain how any business owner could be noble, by your definition. Surely you are not saying that no business owner can be noble, simply because they own a business that increases in value if it succeeds? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-stone-says-koch-gave-romney-100-million-to-name-ryan/632620/27 "2012-08-26T22:57:07Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > :rolleyes: > > I suppose you think the Koch brothers should have grown their business out of the goodness of their hearts instead of for their own profit? If they wanted to be called “heroes”, yes, they should have. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-stone-says-koch-gave-romney-100-million-to-name-ryan/632620/28 "2012-08-26T23:03:01Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Not at all. They saw opportunities and took advantage of them. Good for them. I just don’t think they should be lionized as public benefactors for having done so. > [@clairobscur](#): > > If they wanted to be called “heroes”, yes, they should have. > [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Of course they should have done it for their own interests. And there is nothing inherently wrong with that. > > It doesn’t make them bad. But doesn’t make then ‘great’ or ‘heroic’ either. I think we all need to keep a little perspective here. I was responding to what i thought was Robot Arm’s negative reaction to the fact that someone did something for their own profit v. the “public good.” If Robot Arm was really just commenting on the definition of “hero,” then fine, no quarrel from me. Robot Arm, even if you don’t want to use the word “hero” (which I don’t have a quarrel with), I don’t see why you would object to describing anyone who’s built a successful business as a “public benefactor.” They’ve built something that benefits lots of people. Sounds like a “public benefactor” to me. Also, clairobscur, I’m not aware of them ever wanting to be called heroes, so your post is a bit of a non sequitur. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-stone-says-koch-gave-romney-100-million-to-name-ryan/632620/29 "2012-08-26T23:21:38Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > When judging opinions, I personally think it’s very helpful to keep in mind, to never forget, that Martin Hyde not only thinks that [homosexuals are mentally ill](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15349175&postcount=345), he was one of the bigoted bullies who drove our [beloved Sampiro away from the Dope](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15348793&postcount=328). Who the **fuck** gives a shit about a bunch of gay people? I understand it’s a pet topic here, but it’s 100% off topic to this thread. > [@](#): > > In general I agree, though I’d like to know what percentage you think the workers had to contribute. Not that there isn’t plenty one can criticize about the old-timey moguls, it’s pretty well-known that most of the largest business leaders in American history were also philanthropists of one type or another ([John D. Rockefeller](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Rockefeller#Philanthropy), [Aaron Montgomery Ward](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aaron_Montgomery_Ward#Public_Life:_The_Fight_for_Grant_Park), [Henry Ford](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ford), for instance. [Cornelius Vanderbilt](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelius_Vanderbilt#Death_and_legacy) built a railroad system that’s still in use today. What legacy will the Koch Brothers leave behind? Would depend on the workers. All the blue collar, manufacturing type workers the Kochs employ? They’re as replaceable as a trash can or a hammer, and are not individually particularly valuable. All the chemical engineers and etc? They had real value. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-stone-says-koch-gave-romney-100-million-to-name-ryan/632620/30 "2012-08-26T23:25:18Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > … What legacy will the Koch Brothers leave behind? Why, the lovely iridescent rainbows that float on polluted water! Beautiful! ---
**Author:** ![JackieLikesVariety](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackielikesvariety/32/296_2.png) [@JackieLikesVariety](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JackieLikesVariety)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-stone-says-koch-gave-romney-100-million-to-name-ryan/632620/31 "2012-08-26T23:30:06Z")
> [@](#): > > Who the fuck gives a shit about a bunch of gay people? anyone who cares about civil rights. you know, Real Americans. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-stone-says-koch-gave-romney-100-million-to-name-ryan/632620/32 "2012-08-26T23:30:48Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Would depend on the workers. All the blue collar, manufacturing type workers the Kochs employ? They’re as replaceable as a trash can or a hammer, and are not individually particularly valuable. All the chemical engineers and etc? They had real value. Do the denialist think tanks they give money to and have in the payroll have real value? > **[Documents reveal Koch-funded group's plot to undermine climate science](https://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2012/0215/Documents-reveal-Koch-funded-group-s-plot-to-undermine-climate-science)** > > Documents leaked from the 'free-market' Heartland Institute reveal payments to prominent climate-change deniers, a plan to create a fossil-fuel-friendly curriculum for Kindergartners, and efforts to 'keep opposing voices' out of the media. > [@](#): > > Leaked documents from the free-market conservative organization The Heartland Institute reveal a plan to create school educational materials that contradict the established science on climate change. > > The documents, leaked by an anonymous donor and released on DeSmogBlog, include the organization’s 2012 fundraising plan. It lists Heartland Institute donors, from the Charles G. Koch Charitable Foundation (established by Koch Industries billionaire Charles G. Koch), to Philip Morris parent company Altria, to software giant Microsoft and pharmaceutical company Eli Lilly. > > Funding skepticism > > Heartland focuses on free-market issues across the board, including promoting charter schools, lobbying for business-friendly finance, insurance and real estate rules and promoting prescription drug availability before full Food and Drug Administration testing. > > In the area of climate change, the leaked documents revealed that the group funds vocal climate skeptics, including Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change founder Craig Idso ($11,600 per month), physicist Fred Singer ($5,000 plus expenses per month), and New Zealand geologist Robert Carter ($1,667 per month). They’ve also pledged $90,000 to skeptical meteorologist Anthony Watts, who blogs at [WattsUpWithThat.com](http://WattsUpWithThat.com). > > The documents also reveal a communications strategy aimed at “keep[ing] opposing voices out” of publications such as Forbes Magazine, where the audience is “reliably anti-climate.” > > On the education front, Wojick would be paid $5,000 per module, or $25,000 per quarter, according to the report’s tentative estimates, to produce the Heartland climate curricula. The Institute’s anonymous donor has pledged $100,000 to the project, which the Institute hopes to match from other donors. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-stone-says-koch-gave-romney-100-million-to-name-ryan/632620/33 "2012-08-26T23:32:58Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Who the **fuck** gives a shit about a bunch of gay people? Decent folks. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-stone-says-koch-gave-romney-100-million-to-name-ryan/632620/34 "2012-08-26T23:42:09Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Please explain how any business owner could be noble, by your definition. Surely you are not saying that no business owner can be noble, simply because they own a business that increases in value if it succeeds? I admire Bill Gates, not for making money, but for spending some of it to do things like eradicating malaria, and for taking an active role to see that it’s well spent. Rich people have endowed universities, libraries, hospitals, museums, etc. I consider those things to be noble (somewhat tempered by the fact that they tend to name such things after themselves). > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I was responding to what i thought was Robot Arm’s negative reaction to the fact that someone did something for their own profit v. the “public good.” If Robot Arm was really just commenting on the definition of “hero,” then fine, no quarrel from me. Interesting that you jumped to that conclusion of what prompted my “negative reaction”. > [@](#): > > Robot Arm, even if you don’t want to use the word “hero” (which I don’t have a quarrel with), I don’t see why you would object to describing anyone who’s built a successful business as a “public benefactor.” They’ve built something that benefits lots of people. Sounds like a “public benefactor” to me. I consider a benefactor to be someone who gives a gift or a donation. The jobs the Kochs created are not gifts, and there is nothing noble about creating them in the process of enriching themselves. And I particularly object to the possibility that they may gain greater access to, or favorable treatment from, the government for having done so. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-stone-says-koch-gave-romney-100-million-to-name-ryan/632620/35 "2012-08-27T02:38:44Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > Your wildest imaginings of what may go on in the realm of buying access are probably not even close to the reality. The Kochs are evil incarnate and represent the worst of what is wrong with American politics. I disagree. If not for the current political climate, all their money would get very little political traction. The conservatives have always had the money, they’ve just never had the votes until the tea party came along and gave them something they could use to leverage their money. Now they’ve got a lion by the tail and they have to deal with folks like Todd Akin. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > . . . which is just SUCH a terrible thing, I guess? 😕 I think they’re talking about the fact that money can have this sort of influence at all. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Excuse me? The Kochs are great Americans who have directly created almost 100,000 jobs at their company alone. I love that on this board, great american heroes are denigrated because they exercise their first amendment rights, while men like Barack Obama that traffic in lies and false promises to sell the American people policies they don’t want and don’t need are held up as paragons of virtue. > > Business leaders deserve almost 100% of all credit for why America became the most powerful and wealthiest country in the world. You have a very broad definition of the word hero. I suppose the average American Joe who fought and died on Normandy beach should be very grateful to the Koch brothers (greatest American heroes) for making America a great country. Its the average American that makes America great. Every country has its share of really greedy bastards that make as much money as they can. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > :rolleyes: > > I suppose you think the Koch brothers should have grown their business out of the goodness of their hearts instead of for their own profit? Yeah but why lionize them? Why treat them like we all owe our prosperity to them rather than the other way around? > [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Of course they should have done it for their own interests. And there is nothing inherently wrong with that. > > It doesn’t make them bad. But doesn’t make then ‘great’ or ‘heroic’ either. I think we all need to keep a little perspective here. I think you are not appreciating the Ayn Rand perspective of the self interested man as hero of society. > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I don’t see why you would object to describing anyone who’s built a successful business as a “public benefactor.” They’ve built something that benefits lots of people. Sounds like a “public benefactor” to me. When Jonas Salk invented the polio vaccine and refused to patent it, he was a public benefactor. Some level of altruism (no matter how despicable the notion may be to you) is a necessary component of the “benefactor” title. > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Would depend on the workers. All the blue collar, manufacturing type workers the Kochs employ? They’re as replaceable as a trash can or a hammer, and are not individually particularly valuable. All the chemical engineers and etc? They had real value. And it is this notion that labor is just a fungible cost of production that will ruin civilization. Road to serfdom indeed. > [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > The jobs the Kochs created are not gifts, and there is nothing noble about creating them in the process of enriching themselves. You obviously haven’t read Atlas Shrugged. These guys are the heroes of civilization. You know… Job Creators. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-stone-says-koch-gave-romney-100-million-to-name-ryan/632620/36 "2012-08-27T03:21:38Z")
Yay, straw! Just for the record, I don’t believe anything that dumbassuri is trying to stuff in my mouth. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-stone-says-koch-gave-romney-100-million-to-name-ryan/632620/37 "2012-08-27T03:40:12Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Yay, straw! Just for the record, I don’t believe anything that dumbassuri is trying to stuff in my mouth. That’s almost amusing, coming from the guy who wrote this: > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > I suppose you think the Koch brothers should have grown their business out of the goodness of their hearts instead of for their own profit? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-stone-says-koch-gave-romney-100-million-to-name-ryan/632620/38 "2012-08-27T05:19:28Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > When judging opinions, I personally think it’s very helpful to keep in mind, to never forget, that Martin Hyde not only thinks that [homosexuals are mentally ill](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15349175&postcount=345), he was one of the bigoted bullies who drove our [beloved Sampiro away from the Dope](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=15348793&postcount=328). **Martin’s** views on homosexuality are ignorant and unscientific. It certainly reflects an inability to see past his own prejudices and preconceptions. It seemed so absurd, I had a hard time believing it the first time he laid it out on this MB. However, **Sampiro** has a thicker skin that that, and if let “bullies” drive him away from here, that speaks more to me about his own person weakness. And I say that having stated several times that he is one my favorite posters on this MB. I doubt he’ll really stay away once he cools off. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-stone-says-koch-gave-romney-100-million-to-name-ryan/632620/39 "2012-08-27T10:40:34Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I admire Bill Gates, not for making money, but for spending some of it to do things like eradicating malaria, and for taking an active role to see that it’s well spent. Rich people have endowed universities, libraries, hospitals, museums, etc. I consider those things to be noble (somewhat tempered by the fact that they tend to name such things after themselves). You mean like this? > [@](#): > > The David H. Koch Institute for Integrative Cancer Research is a cancer research center affiliated with the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) located in Cambridge, Massachusetts, United States. The Institute is one of eight National Cancer Institute-designated basic research centers in the United States. > > The Institute was launched in October 2007 with a $100 million grant from David H. Koch and the 180,000 square feet research facility opened in December 2010, replacing the MIT Center for Cancer Research. The Institute is affiliated with 25 MIT faculty members in both the Schools of Engineering and Science. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=15426807](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=15426807) ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2012, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-stone-says-koch-gave-romney-100-million-to-name-ryan/632620/40 "2012-08-27T13:30:10Z")
Personally, I like what Oscar Wilde wrote on [individualism and the demeaning nature of charity](http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/wilde-oscar/soul-man/index.htm). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-stone-says-koch-gave-romney-100-million-to-name-ryan/632620.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-stone-says-koch-gave-romney-100-million-to-name-ryan/632620.md?page=3)