# roger thornhill: Be a Man, already **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 21, 2004, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-thornhill-be-a-man-already/265296 "2004-09-21T09:11:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Creative\_Munster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/919ad9/32.png) [@Creative\_Munster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Creative_Munster)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-thornhill-be-a-man-already/265296/21 "2004-09-21T18:20:53Z")
I read it the same way you did, **andros**. Maybe **Liberal** will come along to clarify, but I’m sure we are right. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-thornhill-be-a-man-already/265296/22 "2004-09-21T18:36:43Z")
> [@andros](#): > > :shrug: I could tell from the Bible verse cited. Seems clear to me that **SolGrundy** was not being a" teacher of law and Pharisee" in his OP. OTOH, **roger thornhill** seems to fit that description quite well. That’s how I read **Liberal’s** quote. **Grundy** , I support you in your lifestyle “choice” (like you get a choice in who you fall in love with). FTR, my uncle and his partner are heading up to Canada next month to get married, so my son will grow up with Uncle X and Uncle Y. It’s little steps like this which will allow acceptance to grow. ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-thornhill-be-a-man-already/265296/23 "2004-09-21T18:43:11Z")
Oh yeah, I forgot. While I would never condem you for your sexual orientation, I do have to condem you for being an undead ex-mobster who occasionally reigns destruction upon Metropolis. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-thornhill-be-a-man-already/265296/24 "2004-09-21T19:28:18Z")
> [@Rysler](#): > > Well, **duffer**? Or are bored cliches the extent of your humanity? Huh? **andros** and **calm kiwi** , the OP was whining about it! I merely bolded part of the OP’s quote, and now I’m in the wrong?!? Where did I say anything about gays being somehow wrong? Chill. Deep breath. **Mockingbird** , though rarely, helps my point here. Now show me where I said anything deregatory in this thread against gays. :dubious: Can’t do it? Shut the fuck up, then. ---
**Author:** ![InvidiousCourgette](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47c2d/32.png) [@InvidiousCourgette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InvidiousCourgette)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-thornhill-be-a-man-already/265296/25 "2004-09-21T20:00:43Z")
> [@Mockingbird](#): > > I’ve never seen a poster with so much to say and so insubstantial content. scylla comes close, but you inch ahead bravely. Congratulations to you for striving to set the bar lower for the ratio of posts to content. I am reminded of an article I once read about the great physicist Richard Feynman. It explained that one of his great attributes was the ability to communicate very complex ideas in simple terms. He would never use verbose language when simple terminology conveyed an idea just as effectively. Sadly, all too many of us here have the opposite characteristic in our writing style. I have to say, while I am certainly not immune, this behaviour is perhaps best epitomised by **Liberal** , with the obvious caveat IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-thornhill-be-a-man-already/265296/26 "2004-09-21T20:16:00Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Huh? > > **andros** and **calm kiwi** , the OP was whining about it! I merely bolded part of the OP’s quote, and now I’m in the wrong?!? Where did I say anything about gays being somehow wrong? Chill. Deep breath. > > **Mockingbird** , though rarely, helps my point here. > > Now show me where I said anything deregatory in this thread against gays. :dubious: > > Can’t do it? Shut the fuck up, then. I never claimed you said anything about gays being wrong, or anything derogatory about gays in this thread. No need to put words in my mouth. However, you did say that **SolGrundy** is a “whiny and vocal and self-centered” homosexual, “making such a big deal about [his] own sexuality.” That’s what you bolded, snookums, and that’s what you are accusing him of doing. Can you back it up? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-thornhill-be-a-man-already/265296/27 "2004-09-21T20:16:45Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Huh? > > **andros** and **calm kiwi** , the OP was whining about it! I merely bolded part of the OP’s quote, and now I’m in the wrong?!? Where did I say anything about gays being somehow wrong? Chill. Deep breath. > > **Mockingbird** , though rarely, helps my point here. Well, what was your point, exactly? Apparently, I’m not the only one here who thought it was “Shut up, you whiney faggot.” But I accept that I could be projecting. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-thornhill-be-a-man-already/265296/28 "2004-09-21T20:18:04Z")
> [@InvidiousCourgette](#): > > this behaviour is perhaps best epitomised by **Liberal** While that might be the case in general, it does not apprear to be the case in this thread. He was certainly brief, if apparantly obscure to some. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-thornhill-be-a-man-already/265296/29 "2004-09-21T20:54:08Z")
> [@andros](#): > > However, you did say that **SolGrundy** is a **“whiny and vocal and self-centered”** homosexual, That’s what you bolded, snookums, and that’s what you are accusing him of doing. Can you back it up? Of course I can back it up. Much like I’m doing with your post, I was only bolding his own words. Dial down the sensitivity a notch or 7. Or isn’t pointing out…ah forget it. You won’t see it in context anyway, obviously. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-thornhill-be-a-man-already/265296/30 "2004-09-21T20:55:59Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Well, what was your point, exactly? Apparently, I’m not the only one here who thought it was “Shut up, you whiney faggot.” > > But I accept that I could be projecting. Yup, you were projecting, note the original post I quoted and read his own words. He said it, not me. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-thornhill-be-a-man-already/265296/31 "2004-09-21T21:08:33Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Of course I can back it up. Much like I’m doing with your post, I was only bolding his own words. Dial down the sensitivity a notch or 7. > > Or isn’t pointing out…ah forget it. You won’t see it in context anyway, obviously. :rolleyes: No, now I’m afraid you’re the one projecting. I’m not being hypersensitive. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that you were saying that the OP was an example of whining self-centeredness and making a big deal out of Sol’s sexuality. I can’t see how it was, but you obviously believe it to be. So, spill. Why do you classify that post as whiny and self-centered? ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-thornhill-be-a-man-already/265296/32 "2004-09-21T21:18:35Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > hang on Kettle, I just now I have that Pot here somewhere… Wow, that was an impressive job of missing the point, **duff**. It’s all like _The Matrix_ and shit – all my typing and ranting and my point didn’t even come _close_ to getting through to you. But actually, you did a pretty good job of demonstrating my point. I was doing a search through the boards last night, and found threads from _over four years ago_ saying the same kind of stuff I’ve been trying to say recently, all the time thinking I was saying something new. None of this is new, or topical. It’s been going around in circles forever. And why? Because people keep dismissing it, because: 1. “Oh, there goes one of the whiny self-indulgent homos going on about ‘gay rights’ again. I’m tired of hearing about it.” Well, I’m tired of talking about it! I’d much rather just go on about my business, but every day there’s another news story or dismissive comment made or some other reminder that things are still pretty fucked up. 2. “Well, the SDMB is just a bastion of Liberal Gay Rights Activists. The majority of the country isn’t like that and doesn’t agree.” There are over 40,000 subscribers on this message boards. I know of about 20 posters who are openly gay. That’s 0.0005. I’m no math wizard, but that indicates that maybe you don’t have to be gay to see that there’s something wrong going on. 3. “I’m not against gays personally, I just think that homosexuality is wrong/inconvenient/a sin/laughable/makes me uncomfortable.” I’m gay (I believe I mentioned that), and I live in a country that refuses to acknowledge my relationships as legitimate, either legally or socially. And I see millions of other people who take that right for granted, just by virtue of their being wired the “right” way. There I go being over-dramatic again, but I take that personally. 4. “They’re trying to change the way I think. I’ve said all I’m going to say, and I’m done arguing about it.” Well good for you. I’ll just sit here, then, and accept the status quo and die without getting what I want. Does that work better for you? Again, I’m not for one second going to act like I speak for all homos everywhere. I’m just tired of seeing so many good people who have resigned themselves to never getting what they want in their lifetime, because they’ve been beaten down and they don’t feel like they deserve it. Or they don’t want to make a big deal about it. Or they want to keep it secret. Or they don’t want to make waves. I want people to get what they want. And I want people to say what they mean. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2004, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-thornhill-be-a-man-already/265296/33 "2004-09-21T21:27:03Z")
> [@duffer](#): > > Yup, you were projecting, note the original post I quoted and read his own words. He said it, not me. Okay, now I’m just confused. Here’s what **SolGrundy** said: > [@](#): > > I’m tired of people complaining about how gays are so whiny and vocal and self-centered and making such a big deal about their own sexuality, when the culture is still fucked up enough that otherwise rational people feel that a proper response to a “gay advance” is bashing the fag’s head in. He’s not complaining about whiny gay people, he’s pointing out that gay people have a lot of very serious complaints about how they’re treated in this society, and he’s sick of people dismissing those complaints as “whiny and self-centered.” Your reply to him was, “hang on Kettle, I just now I have that Pot here somewhere…” Now, the only way that response makes any sense is to read it as you dismissing **Sol** as a whiny homosexual, in precisely the manner he’s ranting about. Which makes you look like an economy-sized asshole. I admit, I was surprised by that post, because while I disagree with you on a lot of stuff, I’d never tagged you as a homophobe. Yet I don’t really see any other way to read that remark. Unless perhaps you somehow misread **Sol** ’s rant? ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-thornhill-be-a-man-already/265296/34 "2004-09-22T01:09:42Z")
Hey [b[duffer\*\*, make you a deal: I, **Sol** , **Poly** et al. will stop making such a big deal out of our sexuality **when politicians stop doing the same fucking thing**. Really, I promise. Cuz at that point, guess what?! There won’t be enough people around who support the bullshit Santorum and his ilk push around for it to be politically prudent. I didn’t see (and if I missed it, go right ahead and show me) you getting mad at Bush for talking about the need to defend traditional marriage from us queer folks, and that was in the goddamn State of the Union address, not on a fucking message board that, let’s face it, doesn’t _quite_ get the same sort of attention. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-thornhill-be-a-man-already/265296/35 "2004-09-22T01:31:42Z")
It’s the homophobes who built the damn closet that they expect us to live in quietly and meekly. I’ve stayed out of these threads the last year or so, but some of you may remember my philosophy on the topic: homophobes can suck my dick. I, like Sol, refuse to let my life be dictated by the comfort levels of other people. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-thornhill-be-a-man-already/265296/36 "2004-09-22T01:55:19Z")
You know, attacking someone else for drawing attention to the fact that he is being discriminated against, and supposedly decent human beings are just sitting back and allowing it to happen, or finding reasons to support those who foster the continued discrimination, is notably low. **Duffer** , I for one did not get your point, though I have a hunch what it is, and my custom in such circumstances is to request clarification. So **spell it out**. That’s what **Sol** said in the OP – don’t be afraid to speak your mind, even if you disagree with him. He and I and others want to know where you stand. And I guarantee that unless your views make Fred Phelps’s look like the HRC legislative agenda, you’ll come out ahead, in the estimation of your fellow Dopers at least. Apropos that, let me bring up an incident from a few years ago. There was a Pit thread about a gay kid killing himself, which somehow turned into a truly bizarre series of misunderstandings. But the poster in question, no longer a member here, may be of interest. The guy is a conservative Christian, with a strong interest in SF and a talent for banter, and one of the more generous people I know, given his circumstances. His religious beliefs include taking responsibility for one’s own actions and the idea that homosexual sexual activity (yeah, it’s a solecism – tough shit – what’re you gonna do, take me to the Pit?) is a sin. But he also is largely a libertarian, and is dead opposed to banning gay marriage – because while **he** believes it to be wrong, he doesn’t consider that his religious views are the proper ground for laws that will in fact work injuries on others. And I can respect him for that. He’s living by what **he** considers moral, and where appropriate stating what his beliefs on morality are, as a part of spreading the truth as he knows it and as he’s been commanded to do. He’d be glad to tell **Sol** that he’s sinning – _if asked_ (or if the subject was brought up in a thread he was participating in) – but he’s not prepared to condemn **Sol** or tell him that he cannot live his life in the way he chooses. That presumes a self-righteousness that the guy doesn’t have (unless pushed into a defense mode – he does have a quick temper, too). And while most Christians will say they’re sinners same as gay people, this guy **believes** it – means what he says, and considers **Sol** no better or worse than himself. And he has in fact intervened in a couple of incidents of gay bashing, on the side of the gay person – that, he considers far more offensive than the sexual activity. Like I said, he’ll be frank with what he says, and while his views are not calculated to warm the cockles of gay hearts (pun not intended, and by the way, what are “cockles of [their] hearts,” anyway?), neither is he taking a stance that’s inherently offensive. I find it quite comfortable to live with the knowledge that quite a lot of people think my religious beliefs are out to lunch – they’re not out to enforce their own (or their lack of them) on me by force of law. I think that, once clearly seeing the distinction between his views and the Dobson/Wildmon/Falwell troupe, most gay men and women would find his position one that they could live with – and if it doesn’t endear him to them, neither would it really alienate them. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-thornhill-be-a-man-already/265296/37 "2004-09-22T02:39:02Z")
A cockle is either a weedy plant that grows around grain plants, a bivalve mollusk of the Cardiidae family, or a type of kiln. From the context, I think it’s pretty clear that the idiom refers to the mollusk. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-thornhill-be-a-man-already/265296/38 "2004-09-22T02:45:00Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > A cockle is either a weedy plant that grows around grain plants, a bivalve mollusk of the Cardiidae family, or a type of kiln. > > From the context, I think it’s pretty clear that the idiom refers to the mollusk. I thought hearts were composed of mussel, not cockle! 😉 At least while they’re alive, alive O! ---
**Author:** ![SolGrundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbce88/32.png) [@SolGrundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SolGrundy)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-thornhill-be-a-man-already/265296/39 "2004-09-22T02:55:10Z")
I meant to be more concise earlier, but got carried away again. > [@duffer](#): > > Now show me where I said anything deregatory in this thread against gays. :dubious: > > Can’t do it? Shut the fuck up, then. You didn’t say anything derogatory against gays in this thread, because you haven’t say _anything_ in this thread. You just came in, made a snipe at me, and **completely ignored everything else I said**. Which is the entire fucking problem. People are so quick dismiss the idea that things are all that bad or that there’s an injustice going on, but will jump all over you for complaining about it. And then they just shake their heads and wonder why all the homos are getting all angry and uppity. And nothing happens. And laws and amendments get passed. And people die without being able to marry the people they love. So sorry if I fucking annoyed you. ---
**Author:** ![Ilsa\_Lund](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/a6a055/32.png) [@Ilsa\_Lund](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ilsa_Lund)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2004, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-thornhill-be-a-man-already/265296/40 "2004-09-22T03:03:18Z")
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