# Roger Waters is a tankie **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 7, 2022, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-waters-is-a-tankie/969234 "2022-08-07T05:05:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2025, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-waters-is-a-tankie/969234/321 "2025-07-20T04:52:34Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Prosecuting those who send the organization money, provide material support, and recruit on their behalf seems reasonable, but from the article it appears that all Waters has done is make public his disagreement with the UK putting them on the list. Waters is a nut bag and his politics are revolting, but yeah sorry, in a free society he’s allowed to have them. To me even the idea that he could face **14 years** in prison for voicing support to an organization that the government doesn’t like is revolting. Hell, 14 years for donating to a cause the government doesn’t like is obscene. Know what country it sounds like? > **[Kremlin critic convicted again, handed new prison term for opposing war in...](https://www.voanews.com/a/kremlin-critic-convicted-again-handed-new-prison-term-for-opposing-war-in-ukraine-/7881849.html)** > > Sentences underscore Moscow’s intolerance of any dissenting voices > **[Russian court jails US-Russian woman for 12 years over $50 charity donation](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/15/russian-court-jails-us-russian-woman-for-12-years-over-50-charity-donation)** > > Ksenia Khavana jailed for treason over donation to US charity that helps Ukraine Laws like this do not belong in a modern liberal democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2025, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-waters-is-a-tankie/969234/322 "2025-07-20T04:55:54Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Laws like this do not belong in a modern liberal democracy. “This organization is a bunch of terrorists!” “How can you be sure?” “Nobody denies it.” “Because people who do are prosecuted!” “As they should be, for speaking in support of terrorists.” That seems like a law that’s instantly problematic. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2025, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-waters-is-a-tankie/969234/323 "2025-07-20T07:27:52Z")
Just to clear some confusion: Elbit Systems is an Israeli arms manufacturer, the largest in the country, and a major international exporter. That equipment in British warehouses? That wasn’t British equipment intended for the Israeli military - it was Israeli equipment intended for the British military. Naturally. British citizens have the right to legally protest the fact that their government is purchasing weapons from Israel. That goes without saying. But the actual equipment they destroyed was not going to be killing anyone in Gaza. It was going to be killing whoever the Brits decided to kill in the next war they fought. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2025, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-waters-is-a-tankie/969234/324 "2025-07-20T08:30:28Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Just to clear some confusion …there is no confusion. In my post I mentioned “Elbit Systems Ltd”, which has subsidiaries in the United Kingdom, however the parent company ultimately is the target here as it’s them that _are contributing to the genocide of the Palestinian people in Gaza_. You don’t get a pass on atrocities because you have a convoluted ownership structure. Juries in the past in the UK have decided that property damage specifically in order to stop war crimes is reasonable. It’s likely that could have decided the same way here. But now Palestine Action have been proscribed, things may go differently. Which is probably the point. We will find out in a couple of years when those detained for damages at the RAF base eventually goes to trial. The prosecutor has confirmed they will argue these offences had a “terrorist connection”. In the meantime, they’ve been remanded in custody. And the RAF planes they damaged are alleged to being used to refuel surveillance flights over Gaza. It was a direct action to _stop war crimes_. It’s the _war crimes_ and _genocide_ that matter here. Along with overreach by the UK government on civil liberties. It isn’t just attacks on protest groups and movements. Multiple independent journalists in the UK have been targeted by the authorities, been detained, had computers and equipment confiscated, and even been demanded to give up their sources in Gaza. All to protect a country that is starving a civilian population. This of course doesn’t have a lot to do with “Roger Waters is a tankie.” But I’m not the one who bought up Palestine Action. So if we are going to talk about it: let’s be crystal clear _what they are fighting for_. And that these actions are not those of a terrorist organisation but of one that you would reasonably take in order to stop war crimes on a _massive industrial scale_. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2025, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-waters-is-a-tankie/969234/325 "2025-07-20T08:42:06Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > In my post I mentioned “Elbit Systems Ltd”, which has subsidiaries in the United Kingdom, however the parent company ultimately is the target here as it’s them that _are contributing to the genocide of the Palestinian people in Gaza_. You don’t get a pass on atrocities because you have a convoluted ownership structure. > > Juries in the past in the UK have decided that property damage specifically in order to stop war crimes is reasonable. It’s likely that could have decided the same way here. > > But now Palestine Action have been proscribed, things may go differently. Which is probably the point. We will find out in a couple of years when those detained for damages at the RAF base eventually goes to trial. The prosecutor has confirmed they will argue these offences had a “terrorist connection”. In the meantime, they’ve been remanded in custody. > > And the RAF planes they damaged are alleged to being used to refuel surveillance flights over Gaza. It was a direct action to _stop war crimes_. I’m not going to argue Gaza with you, again, and not being British, the state of civil liberties in the UK is none of my business. I just don’t understand how damaging equipment earmarked for the British military is going to cause the Israeli military to purchase less equipment of its own from the same manufacturer. I’d also like to see some proof to your allegations that the RAF is assisting Israel with refueling or surveillance or anything else besides shooting down the occasional Iranian drone. As far as I can see, their attacks were attacks against the British military, and no-one else. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2025, 9:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-waters-is-a-tankie/969234/326 "2025-07-20T09:17:33Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’m not going to argue Gaza with you, …you can’t avoid the fact that Palestine Actions actions are to try and _stop the ongoing genocide in Gaza_. And if you want to have an opinion on that, we are going to have to discuss that. Because as I’ve said before, similar actions taken in the past _after_ the 2000 Terrorism act resulted in wet bus tickets and acquittals. And it’s likely that would have happened again here until Palestine Action were proscribed. > [@Alessan](#): > > I just don’t understand how damaging equipment earmarked for the British military It’s to create awareness. To make things more difficult for them to operate in the UK and leave. It’s to hurt the bottom line. > [@Alessan](#): > > I’d also like to see some proof to your allegations that the RAF is assisting Israel with refueling or surveillance or anything else besides shooting down the occasional Iranian drone. I said _alleged_. The details of UK surveillance flights are kept secret. Here is the MOD admitting that yes, they flew surveillance flights, admitting to only limited scope. > **[UK willing to hand over Gaza intelligence to war crimes court](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c2k0d1elj81o)** > > The RAF has flown hundreds of surveillance flights over Gaza since last December. Here is the Foreign Secretary who, when asked directly what the surveillance flights were for, refused to answer. > **[63K views · 3.2K reactions | I asked the Foreign Secretary what role Britain...](https://www.facebook.com/JeremyCorbynMP/videos/964385595459079/)** > > I asked the Foreign Secretary what role Britain has played in flying surveillance aircraft over Gaza, and whether the British army base in Cyprus is being used as a staging point for flights to... (Facebook link) > [@Alessan](#): > > As far as I can see, their attacks were attacks against the British military, and no-one else. The British military, along with the UK government, are _complicit_. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2025, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-waters-is-a-tankie/969234/327 "2025-07-20T09:24:49Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The British military, along with the UK government, are _complicit_. How? How is the British military “complicit”? Is it because you believe that, for some unfathomable reason, they’re providing surveillance intelligence to Israel - the equivalent of carrying coal to Newcastle? Or is it because you believe that the UK should be bombing Israel? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2025, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-waters-is-a-tankie/969234/328 "2025-07-20T10:01:25Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > How? How is the British military “complicit”? Is it because you believe that, for some unfathomable reason, they’re providing surveillance intelligence to Israel - the equivalent of carrying coal to Newcastle? Or is it because you believe that the UK should be bombing Israel? …is this seriously the hill you want to die on Alessan? You’ve _avoided_ the topic of what Israel are doing to Palestinians in Gaza all over the boards. But you want to nit-pick about top-secret operations conducted by the British military? Yes, if the British military are providing surveillance information to Israel about Gaza, and Israel are committing genocide in Gaza, the British military are complicit in that genocide. The very least the UK can do is to stop the surveillance flights. They could kick out the Israeli ambassador. They could declare they would arrest the war criminals Netanyahu and Gallant if they stepped foot on UK soil. They could apply sanctions and international pressure and support South Africa in their legal case against Israel at the International Court of Justice. There are a million things the UK government could be doing that _don’t_ involve bombing Israel. But it would involve firstly admitting that Israel are committing genocide in Gaza. Since you want to dance around that point Alessan, can you admit that? Or do you want to run away from this debate as well? Because as starvation hits a critical level now in Gaza, where it is plainly obvious that we are beyond the point that even if food flooded Gaza tomorrow many Gazans wouldn’t ever recover, it’s more important now than ever before to put a stop to it. So where do you stand on the deliberate starvation of the Palestinian people in Gaza? And do you think people like those in Palestinian Action are wrong for doing whatever they can to try and stop it? And should people like Roger Waters risk going to jail for years just because he supports them? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2025, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-waters-is-a-tankie/969234/329 "2025-07-20T10:16:34Z")
I don’t want to discuss Gaza because it’s pointless. Nothing I say will ever convince anyone, and nothing you say will ever convince me, so what’s the point. But I will state, for the record, that Israel is not committing genocide in Gaza. Israel is fighting a very difficult, very challenging, very vicious war against an enemy that is doing whatever it can to ensure that as many as possible of its own people die, in order to elicit outrage from useful idiots like you. Hamas can end this war tomorrow by surrendering, laying down its arms and releasing the hostages; anything that happens until then is on them. More to the point, the thought that Israel somehow needs assistance from the RAF in terms of surveillance is ludicrous. Israel has hundreds of surveillance drones in the air over Gaza at any given moment; the British have absolutely nothing to offer in terms of technology or capabilities that we don’t already have. The fact that you think the RAF is assisting Israel - and not gathering intelligence for its own purposes - shows just how far down the conspiracy theory rabbit hole you’ve gone. Even more to the point, Pink Floyd were a technically brilliant but ultimately soulless band; they were so white they made ABBA look like the Temptations. Feel free to respond to my post. I will not be engaging you further on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2025, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-waters-is-a-tankie/969234/330 "2025-07-20T10:51:31Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > But I will state, for the record, that Israel is not committing genocide in Gaza. …Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, multiple reputable genocide scholars (including many Israeli ones), and the South African case currently going through the International Court of Justice provide compelling evidence you are wrong. > [@Alessan](#): > > Israel is fighting a very difficult, very challenging, very vicious war against an enemy that is doing whatever it can to ensure that as many as possible of its own people die, in order to elicit outrage from useful idiots like you. There is absolutely nothing defensible about the deliberate decision not to allow enough food, including baby formula, into Gaza. Every humanitarian agency on the ground right now are saying that its an emergency. A month ago they were saying it was the “hungriest place on earth.” Things have declined even further since then. This isn’t a “difficult, very challenging” war at all. Israel have demolished Rafah. They’ve just finished flattening Beit Hanoun. They are bulldozing the country. Palestinians in Gaza have been concentrated into only 14% of their land while Netanyahu and co debate where best to ethnically cleanse them. All of this is a matter of public record. I’m not making any of this up. I’m not a “useful idiot.” And history will be on my side. > [@Alessan](#): > > Hamas can end this war tomorrow by surrendering, laying down its arms and releasing the hostages; anything that happens until then is on them. Hamas have agreed to release all of the hostages and more importantly to _step down from power_. Absolutely everybody should know this. The words Alessan uses here are important. But this isn’t enough. It requires more than just a cessation of power. It requires humiliation. It requires Hamas (which has been used to describe everything from the terrorists that conducted October 7th to low-level clerks in government) voluntarily agreeing to be targeted and killed, or thrown into one of numerous Israeli torture camps (that nobody even disputes exists.) > [@Alessan](#): > > Israel has hundreds of surveillance drones in the air over Gaza at any given moment Not only do they have hundreds of surveillance drones, they have hundreds of sniper drones that deliberately target children. And lest you accuse me of blood libel, it’s not me saying it, it’s the New York Times. > **[Response to Recent Criticisms on New York Times Opinion Essay | The New York...](https://www.nytco.com/press/response-to-recent-criticisms-on-new-york-times-opinion-essay/)** > [@Alessan](#): > > and not gathering intelligence for its own purposes What purpose would the UK government have for flying well over 500 flights over Gaza? If you know, can you let the public know? Because Lammy wants to keep it a secret. There is very little anyone can do about this. Both the Republicans and Democrats and the Conservatives and Labour _support_ this. People take direct action when the government and the system do evil things and there is almost nothing else they can do. They target military contractors. They target the military. [They aren’t shooting Palestinian children in the testicles](https://ca.news.yahoo.com/idf-soldiers-deliberately-wounding-children-162950060.html) like its some sort of a fucking game. Roger Waters doesn’t deserve to go to jail for supporting them. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2025, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-waters-is-a-tankie/969234/331 "2025-07-20T11:36:13Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > I’m not a “useful idiot.” That’s exactly what a useful idiot would say, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2025, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-waters-is-a-tankie/969234/332 "2025-07-20T11:47:03Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But this isn’t enough. It requires more than just a cessation of power. It requires humiliation. It requires Hamas (which has been used to describe everything from the terrorists that conducted October 7th to low-level clerks in government) voluntarily agreeing to be targeted and killed It requires Hamas to _not have the means to repeat October 7_. I understand why _you_ would have a problem with that, since attempts at “decolonization” like we saw on October 7 are going to be difficult without Hamas. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > or thrown into one of numerous Israeli torture camps (that nobody even disputes exists.) You’re not being coherent enough to dispute, BanquetBuddy. If I knew what the fuck you were talking about, I’d dispute that torture camps exist. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Not only do they have hundreds of surveillance drones, they have hundreds of sniper drones that deliberately target children. And lest you accuse me of blood libel, it’s not me saying it, it’s the New York Times. That’s not what your link says, you lying piece of shit. It says the pictures aren’t “fabricated”, this does not mean that every delusional claim made by the original source is true. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > What purpose would the UK government have for flying well over 500 flights over Gaza? They want their own sources on what is going on? How fucking delusional do you have to be to think that Israel needs British plane pictures from Gaza? Does Netanyahu also need Starmer when he wants to reach the top shelf? > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > There is very little anyone can do about this. Both the Republicans and Democrats and the Conservatives and Labour _support_ this. People take direct action when the government and the system do evil things and there is almost nothing else they can do. In other words, there is wide bipartisan support for Israel’s defense of itself in both countries, so people who oppose Israel enough have to take “direct action” (IE violence) against British targets in order to change people’s political opinions? Gee, I wonder why anyone would call this “terrorism”. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2025, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-waters-is-a-tankie/969234/333 "2025-07-20T11:54:08Z")
If BanquetBuddy wasn’t a delusional liar, he wouldn’t make up deranged conspiracies about armies of child hunting drones, and he’d understand that a person killed by a sniper and a person killed by a stray round from a suppressive burst fired a block away are _both_ going to have a single 5.56 bullet in their head or body. Simple geometry should explain why a stray from a burst is most likely going to be the only bullet that hits; and the deaths involving shots to the head or body specifically is reverse survivorship bias. People grazed by a stray don’t show up in the hospital dead. If Israel’s drones aren’t hunting children with rifle ammo (what an absolute banger of a theory, you really have to have a _special_ mindset to believe something like that), they’re free to do recon, and Israel doesn’t need the UK to do it for their next door neighbor 🤦‍♂️ ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2025, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-waters-is-a-tankie/969234/334 "2025-07-20T12:06:42Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > It requires Hamas to _not have the means to repeat October 7_. …and they don’t anymore. > [@Babale](#): > > I understand why _you_ would have a problem with that, since attempts at “decolonization” like we saw on October 7 are going to be difficult without Hamas. You keep using the word “decolonization” as if I’ve EVER used that word in the context of this discussion. I don’t recall ever using that at all. You’ve got a fantasy version of me living in your head. Its very sad. > [@Babale](#): > > You’re not being coherent enough to dispute, BanquetBuddy. If I knew what the fuck you were talking about, I’d dispute that torture camps exist. > **[Gazan detainees tell BBC of torture by IDF and Israel Prison Service](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn7vje365rno)** > > Interviews with five men held in the months after the Hamas attacks reveal allegations of violence and abuse, adding to reports of misconduct by military and prison staff. [https://www.btselem.org/publications/202408\_welcome\_to\_hell](https://www.btselem.org/publications/202408_welcome_to_hell) [https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/05/israel-un-expert-calls-probe-allegations-torture-and-mistreatment-against](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/05/israel-un-expert-calls-probe-allegations-torture-and-mistreatment-against) > **[Palestinian rights group calls for closure of ‘Israeli torture camps’](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/8/14/palestinian-rights-group-calls-for-closure-of-israeli-torture-camps)** > > Al Mezan Center for Human Rights says 2,650 Palestinians taken from Gaza since October remain in Israeli custody. > **[Torture, abuse and humiliation: Palestinians on Israeli prison ‘hell’](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/05/torture-abuse-and-humiliation-palestinians-on-israeli-prison-hell)** > > Ex-prisoners report sexual assault and starvation in alleged ‘torture camp’ jails presided over by Itamar Ben-Gvir > **[Israel/OPT: Horrifying cases of torture and degrading treatment of...](https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/11/israel-opt-horrifying-cases-of-torture-and-degrading-treatment-of-palestinian-detainees-amid-spike-in-arbitrary-arrests/)** > > Israeli authorities have dramatically increased their use of administrative detention, a form of arbitrary detention, of Palestinians across the occupied West Bank; extended emergency measures that facilitate inhuman and degrading treatment... > **[Israeli whistleblowers detail horror of shadowy detention facility for...](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/10/middleeast/israel-sde-teiman-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd)** > > At a military base that now doubles as a detention center in Israel’s Negev desert, an Israeli working at the facility snapped two photographs of a scene that he says continues to haunt him. > **[Blindfolded and beaten: Palestinians tell of Israeli jail abuse](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cx2yylgze4ro)** > > An Israeli rights group says prisons are overwhelmed, amid allegations of physical and mental violence. > **[Israeli prisons 'operate like torture camps' for Palestinian detainees](https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/08/05/israeli-prisons-operate-like-torture-camps-for-palestinian-detainees_6709743_4.html)** > > A report by the human rights organization B'Tselem has denounced the 'widespread, systematic and prolonged commission of the crime of torture' by the Netanyahu government. > **[Palestinian prisoners describe systemic abuse in Israel’s jails](https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/aug/05/palestinian-prisoners-describe-widespread-abuse-in-israels-jails)** > > Guardian interviews back up report by rights group B’Tselem, which says prisons should now be labelled ‘torture camps’ > **[Israel: Palestinians from Gaza held in secret detention describe torture -...](https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/israel-palestinians-gaza-held-secret-detention-describe-torture-new-testimonies)** > > We are Amnesty International UK. We are ordinary people from across the world standing up for humanity and human rights. > **[Israel: Palestinian Healthcare Workers Tortured](https://www.hrw.org/news/2024/08/26/israel-palestinian-healthcare-workers-tortured)** > > Israeli forces have arbitrarily detained Palestinian healthcare workers in Gaza since hostilities began in October 2023, deported them to detention facilities in Israel, and allegedly tortured and ill-treated them. > [@Babale](#): > > That’s not what your link says, you lying piece of shit. It says the pictures aren’t “fabricated”, this does not mean that every delusional claim made by the original source is true. Yes, the Israeli bullets embedded in Palestinian children were verified, after the NYT received hundreds of comments calling the evidence fake. Because thats all you’ve got. The evidence is simply so overwhelming that all you can do is deny deny deny. > **[Gaza surgeon describes drones targeting children](https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c7893vpy2gqo)** > > Children lying injured in Gaza were picked out and shot by quadcopters, a senior doctor tells MPs. [https://www.npr.org/2024/11/26/g-s1-35437/israel-sniper-drones-gaza-eyewitnesses](https://www.npr.org/2024/11/26/g-s1-35437/israel-sniper-drones-gaza-eyewitnesses) > **[Israel’s war on Gaza is deliberately targeting children – new UN report](https://theconversation.com/israels-war-on-gaza-is-deliberately-targeting-children-new-un-report-252398)** > > Children represent the future. In Gaza that future is being snuffed out. > **[As a surgeon in Gaza, I witnessed hell visited on children. It shames me that...](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/feb/02/surgeon-gaza-children-britain-sniper-fire-drones-labour-arms-israel)** > > I saw them killed by sniper fire and drones. Why doesn’t Labour condemn it? Why do arms keep flowing in Israel’s direction? asks retired professor of transplant surgery Nizam Mamode [https://www.npr.org/2024/11/19/nx-s1-5195171/witnesses-say-israel-is-using-sniper-drones-in-gaza-and-theyre-shooting-civilians](https://www.npr.org/2024/11/19/nx-s1-5195171/witnesses-say-israel-is-using-sniper-drones-in-gaza-and-theyre-shooting-civilians) > **[‘Not a normal war’: doctors say children have been targeted by Israeli...](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/02/gaza-palestinian-children-killed-idf-israel-war)** > > IDF says it ‘completely rejects’ charge that its soldiers deliberately fired on any of the thousands of civilians killed in Israeli offensive > [@Babale](#): > > They want their own sources on what is going on? Because…Israel are lying to them? They don’t trust them? > [@Babale](#): > > How fucking delusional do you have to be to think that Israel needs British plane pictures from Gaza? Does Netanyahu also need Starmer when he wants to reach the top shelf? Responding with questions isn’t answering the question. > [@Babale](#): > > In other words, there is wide bipartisan support for Israel’s defense of itself in both countries, In the history of the world, there has often been support for evil regimes from other countries that are also evil, or others that, for whatever reason, are complicit. There are also countries out there, like South Africa and others that are members of the Hague Group, that oppose what is Israel are doing. There isn’t universal support for Israels actions. The way you characterise this is incorrect. And I’d be happy to discuss this further over in the discussion thread. This thread has already been hijacked enough. ETA to correct a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2025, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-waters-is-a-tankie/969234/335 "2025-07-20T12:12:41Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Simple geometry should explain why a stray from a burst is most likely going to be the only bullet that hits; and the deaths involving shots to the head or body specifically is reverse survivorship bias. People grazed by a stray don’t show up in the hospital dead. …I don’t know your credentials. But I’ve cited multiple people with more experience than me. If you’ve got experts that support the position that they are all lying please, by all means, provide them over in the discussion thread. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2025, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-waters-is-a-tankie/969234/336 "2025-07-20T12:16:12Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > If you’ve got experts that support the position that they are all lying please, by all means, provide them over in the discussion thread. I didn’t _claim_ that they lied about the bodies, you slimy little fucker. They said they saw a body with a bullet hole in the chest or head. I’m sure they did. They jumped to the conclusion that this meant Israel “sniped” those people. That’s not a _lie_, that’s just bad reasoning. You slimy little fucker. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2025, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-waters-is-a-tankie/969234/337 "2025-07-20T12:51:12Z")
…I’ve taken this over to the discussion thread. > [@Discussion thread for the Hamas Attacks Israel thread, October 2023](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-thread-for-the-hamas-attacks-israel-thread-october-2023/991317/4772): > > …there is an extended debate in the Roger Waters thread that has taken it off-topic, so I thought I’d bring it here. I’ll summarise because directly quoting from the pit, especially considering what was said, isn’t appropriate. But please feel free to correct me if you feel my summary isn’t accurate. Babale says that " I’d dispute that torture camps exist." I provided the following citations: So my question here is: do you dispute the testimony that released Palestinians and whistleblowers a… ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2025, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-waters-is-a-tankie/969234/338 "2025-07-20T13:26:53Z")
I was going to post something similar. I agree that giving **verbal** support to a group, no matter how vile, is part of free speech. Hell, even The Economist thinks Europe has a free speech problem: > **[Europe’s free-speech problem](https://www.economist.com/leaders/2025/05/15/europes-free-speech-problem)** > > J.D. Vance was right (Gift links are one-time use there, but I think they allow a couple of freebies a month; apologies if you can’t read it) There’s a reason a black lawyer from the ACLU defended a bunch of Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2025, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-waters-is-a-tankie/969234/339 "2025-07-20T13:29:02Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Just to clear some confusion: Elbit Systems is an Israeli arms manufacturer, the largest in the country, and a major international exporter. That equipment in British warehouses? That wasn’t British equipment intended for the Israeli military - it was Israeli equipment intended for the British military. The article had a lot of unanswered questions, including this one, which is why I left my update pretty vague. I’m not even sure that attacking military assets is even _terrorism_, rather than warfare, but since it is not really helping the Palestinian cause, I think that makes it more relevant to this thread, in that it is a further demonstration of Waters’ tankieism - supporting the harming of the West no matter what. I was also deliberately vague in my update about what Waters did, since part of me didn’t want to accept that you could face severe jail time for voicing simple agreement with a group. I thought the story had to be more complicated than that. Jailing casual supporters of a militant group is about the last thing I’d consider when taking measures against those who want to harm society. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2025, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-waters-is-a-tankie/969234/340 "2025-07-20T13:36:25Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Even more to the point, Pink Floyd were a technically brilliant but ultimately soulless band; they were so white they made ABBA look like the Temptations. Now _that’s_ a criminal thing to say. 😡 🤣 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-waters-is-a-tankie/969234.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-waters-is-a-tankie/969234.md?page=18)