# Roger Webster, head of the Fraternal order of Police (FOP) in Cincinatti **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 4, 2003, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-webster-head-of-the-fraternal-order-of-police-fop-in-cincinatti/216825 "2003-12-04T00:13:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-webster-head-of-the-fraternal-order-of-police-fop-in-cincinatti/216825/1 "2003-12-04T00:13:04Z")
What a dick. A bunch of cops beat someone to death and have to be interrogated over it and he starts bitching. He was complaining about how the officers involved were ‘treated worse than criminals’ because they were read their rights, interrogated and segregated. No they weren’t treated worse. absolutely nothing will happen to those officers. People who are arrested for victimless crimes are usually treated worse than those 6 officers were and will be. And cops wonder why the public hates them sometimes. If you think being interrogated and read your rights as ‘punishment’ for beating someone to death is excessive then you’re a total fuck up. What the fuck is wrong with some cops? i know that the Cincinatti incident wasn’t intentional (if it were the cops wouldn’t have called EMTs afterwards) and that it wasn’t racial and that the guy was probably near death before the assault that he started. However if a bunch of cops would rather beat someone to death rather than take a punch then quit bitching that you have to be treated ‘almost’ as bad as someone who is arrested for possession of a victimless narcotic is. ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-webster-head-of-the-fraternal-order-of-police-fop-in-cincinatti/216825/2 "2003-12-04T03:31:51Z")
They didn’t “beat” the guy to death. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-webster-head-of-the-fraternal-order-of-police-fop-in-cincinatti/216825/3 "2003-12-04T05:05:23Z")
Well, it _has_ been ruled a homicide. Other than that, and the fact that he misspelled the name of the city, the OP’s got more strawmen than a southern Ohio hay ride. Top notch, General! Top notch! ---
**Author:** ![Kleptocracy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f17d59/32.png) [@Kleptocracy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kleptocracy)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-webster-head-of-the-fraternal-order-of-police-fop-in-cincinatti/216825/4 "2003-12-04T08:41:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. B \* > \*\*Well, it _has_ been ruled a homicide. > > Other than that, and the fact that he misspelled the name of the city, the OP’s got more strawmen than a southern Ohio hay ride. Top notch, General! Top notch! \*\* So? You can cause a homicide by making someone have a heart attack too. It has happened before during robberies. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-webster-head-of-the-fraternal-order-of-police-fop-in-cincinatti/216825/5 "2003-12-04T11:56:08Z")
I dunno about that Mr B. Other than his description of the incident as “beating to death” I think he’s spot on. I highly doubt these officers were treated worse than the average heroin junkie or prostitute. In order to investigate a man’s death properly, these men should be segregated, they should be read their rights _for their own protection_, and they should be fully questioned about the events leading to death. If this Webster fellow is griping about that, he’s an ass, and should certainly know better how investigations are handled. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-webster-head-of-the-fraternal-order-of-police-fop-in-cincinatti/216825/6 "2003-12-04T12:03:46Z")
Were those officers interviewed in the c **link**? ---
**Author:** ![FisherQueen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/58f4c7/32.png) [@FisherQueen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FisherQueen)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-webster-head-of-the-fraternal-order-of-police-fop-in-cincinatti/216825/7 "2003-12-04T12:20:04Z")
The guy wasn’t beaten to death. He had a heart attack, the result of the combined influence of drugs, obesity, a heart condition, and the immediate exertion of the fight with the police. It’s homicide because the struggle with police caused the heart attack, but the police didn’t hit him anywhere that was potentially fatal. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-webster-head-of-the-fraternal-order-of-police-fop-in-cincinatti/216825/8 "2003-12-04T12:41:31Z")
I’m not going to try to say they beat him to death, but looking at the video, the cops’ body language during the beating was not that of someone trying to simply subdue the suspect, but that of someone lashing out in retaliatory anger. Hey, cops are human, too, but striking in anger is what I consider excessive force. Having said that, though, I’m not certain that he wouldn’t have died while being subdued, rather than beaten in anger. The cops will not go down for this, not there, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-webster-head-of-the-fraternal-order-of-police-fop-in-cincinatti/216825/9 "2003-12-04T12:43:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wesley Clark \* > \*\*However if a bunch of cops would rather beat someone to death rather than take a punch then quit bitching that you have to be treated ‘almost’ as bad as someone who is arrested for possession of a victimless narcotic is. \*\* You are saying the officers should have just stood there and _taken a punch?_ Should they have pulled a Rocky 4 and let the guy beat them up until he simply tired out?. That had to be the dumbest comment I’ve heard in awhile. ---
**Author:** ![ivylass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/9de053/32.png) [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-webster-head-of-the-fraternal-order-of-police-fop-in-cincinatti/216825/10 "2003-12-04T14:21:49Z")
It was ruled a homicide, which is a medical term, not a legal term. Basically, the other medical terms, Suicide, Natural Causes, and Accident, were not appropriate. Whether or not it was _murder_ is a matter for the courts to decide. ---
**Author:** ![Fluffy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Fluffy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fluffy)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-webster-head-of-the-fraternal-order-of-police-fop-in-cincinatti/216825/11 "2003-12-04T15:05:07Z")
Here we fucking go again! This was a coked up criminal also on PCP who was told told to calm down at least 16 times! He punched at least one cop in the face and swung a couple of them around like rag dolls before they took out their sticks! What was the alternative? The asshole had to be restrained in some manner! If he was not black and this incident happened anywhere but Cincinnati, this would be a non issue. ---
**Author:** ![Kleptocracy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f17d59/32.png) [@Kleptocracy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kleptocracy)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-webster-head-of-the-fraternal-order-of-police-fop-in-cincinatti/216825/12 "2003-12-04T21:06:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Cheesesteak \* > \*\*I dunno about that Mr B. Other than his description of the incident as “beating to death” I think he’s spot on. I highly doubt these officers were treated worse than the average heroin junkie or prostitute. In order to investigate a man’s death properly, these men should be segregated, they should be read their rights _for their own protection_, and they should be fully questioned about the events leading to death. > > If this Webster fellow is griping about that, he’s an ass, and should certainly know better how investigations are handled. \*\* Then why the hell would anyone want to be a cop anymore? If we start investigating them for every judgement they make, then they will spend all their time on paid leave. Look, you are right that they should be investigated in this case, but the FOP leader is simply asking that they be treated fairly. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-webster-head-of-the-fraternal-order-of-police-fop-in-cincinatti/216825/13 "2003-12-04T21:10:22Z")
If the guy was white, and he’d been yelling racial epithets at black cops right before he started swinging at them, I don’t think anybody would be bothering Chief Webster at all. Except the families, which always seem to come out of the woodwork when they didn’t lift a finger to help guys like this when they were alive. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-webster-head-of-the-fraternal-order-of-police-fop-in-cincinatti/216825/14 "2003-12-04T21:22:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr. B \* > \*\* > > Other than that, and the fact that he misspelled the name of the city, the OP’s got more strawmen than a southern Ohio hay ride. Top notch, General! Top notch! \*\* LOL. thanks. Venting on straight dope is such a bad idea. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-webster-head-of-the-fraternal-order-of-police-fop-in-cincinatti/216825/15 "2003-12-04T21:22:56Z")
People (thankfully) don’t die all that frequently after encounters with police. I think it is perfectly reasonable to take ANY police related death quite seriously. We give the police a great deal of authority, weapons, and the right to use them. If someone dies, we as a society need to be sure that the police are not overstepping their bounds. Investigate thoroughly, if you find no wrongdoing, we can all feel a bit better about the whole situation. Investigate poorly and nobody knows if it’s just a coverup. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-webster-head-of-the-fraternal-order-of-police-fop-in-cincinatti/216825/16 "2003-12-04T22:41:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wesley Clark \* > **A bunch of cops beat someone to death…** > [@](#): > > [New York Times](http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/04/national/04CINC.html?ex=1071118800&en=0d864c33cfdbbb2f&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE) > But Mr. Jones’s family members and their lawyer asserted that the video only raised questions about the officers’ conduct, pointing to a 97-second gap in the tape. City officials said the camera shut down when the police officer turned off his cruiser’s lights. The officer reactivated the camera moments later using a remote control device, they said. If they intended to beat the guy to death, why turn the camera back on? ---
**Author:** ![Tedster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@Tedster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tedster)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-webster-head-of-the-fraternal-order-of-police-fop-in-cincinatti/216825/17 "2003-12-04T22:55:59Z")
Actually, homicide is most definitely a legal term. Of course for the authorities it was essentially mandatory to explain the definition of the word. Why anyone uses “those really hard words” when they are always subsequently defined is probably best left for another post. I noticed press reports indicate that in addition to cocaine and pcp, he had methanol in his system. Either it’s a typo, or the guy was drinking wood alcohol, very poisonous and may result in blindness - it effectively destroys the optic nerve. I like to party, but this guy must have been really, really out there. BTW, what is the significance of “nineteen” in the 'hood? He was reportedly yelling that over and over prior to police arrival. Is it some kind of black panther 'thang? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-webster-head-of-the-fraternal-order-of-police-fop-in-cincinatti/216825/18 "2003-12-04T23:02:38Z")
He was suffering from potassium deficit. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-webster-head-of-the-fraternal-order-of-police-fop-in-cincinatti/216825/19 "2003-12-04T23:09:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tedster \* > \*\*I noticed press reports indicate that in addition to cocaine and pcp, he had methanol in his system. Either it’s a typo, or the guy was drinking wood alcohol, very poisonous and may result in blindness - it effectively destroys the optic nerve. I like to party, but this guy must have been really, really out there. \*\* Perhaps they meant “methane” and the guy got too close to one of **lieu** ’s farts? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-webster-head-of-the-fraternal-order-of-police-fop-in-cincinatti/216825/20 "2003-12-04T23:13:03Z")
1. As stated by ivylass, the homocide tag, is appropriate, but it does not, as the media would have us all believe, immediately mean murder. 2. It, meaning the scuffle, was a contributing cause of death. He died while struggling, the struggle was not the cause, he did not die from bruising, and soft tissue injuries he recieved from the use of night sticks. He died of cardiac dysrythmia, among other things according to [THIS](http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/Midwest/12/04/died.in.custody/) CNN article. 3. Also in the article, it appears that the family’s shade tree lawyer is looking into ‘positional asphyxia’ as causation. This is valid, and may indeed get hang the cops out to dry. Not too long ago, some cops were found guilty and jailed after sitting on a 400 lb. man at a wedding reception here in Illinois. Though I have no link. 4. The cops have to realize that larger people have different needs, with that kind of body mass, moving air is hard in a normal position, add in drugs and a fight, and it’s a recipe for disaster. 5. Unlike the cops involved with this horrible situation, I will not lose any sleep over the death of Nathaniel Jones. He chose his course, and death was the unfortunate destination. Simply submitting to the commands of the officers would have sufficed. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roger-webster-head-of-the-fraternal-order-of-police-fop-in-cincinatti/216825.md?page=2)