# Roma...Slovakia...Bastards... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 22, 2003, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roma-slovakia-bastards/176900 "2003-05-22T21:13:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roma-slovakia-bastards/176900/1 "2003-05-22T21:13:45Z")
Few months back I started a thread about [forced sterilization](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=161458) in Slovakia. (As an aside, I must ask if anyone who wrote to the Slovak government or embassy got a reply of any kind). At the end of April, an Australian current affairs program called [‘Dateline’](http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/index.php3?daysum=2003-04-30#) did a feature about this subject. Now, we can’t see the show but we do have access to the next best thing: [A transcript.](http://www.sbs.com.au/dateline/trans.php3?dte=2003-04-30&title=Slovakia+-+The+Sterilisation+of+Roma+Women) Here are a few snippits for you: > [@](#): > > The final insult from the doctor, though, was during labour. > > VILMA (Translation): When the baby was coming out and I was in pain, he turned his back to me and started making faces. He said, “Yuck, dirty gypsy”. He didn’t want to touch me. > [@](#): > > The head nurse, Adela Bednaricova, takes me to go and see this baby. She shares the doctor’s assessment of Rom women from settlements. > > ADELA BEDNARICOVA (Translation): As for the Rom women from the settlements… It’s a degenerate race. I don’t know how you’ll translate that, but … they in fact… They have sexual relations between brother and sister, father and daughter, mother and son, and so on. It goes from one generation to another and the latest one is now degenerate. We have the impression that they keep making these children more and more for financial reasons - because they might get extra family allowance. First, I’ll show you the ward where the patients are. > [@](#): > > The hospital in question denies it is refusing to treat Roma from Ingrid’s village. But when I was filming outside, it became clear that the allegations of forced sterilisations have touched a raw nerve here. I’m approached by a doctor from the hospital. It’s unclear whether he realises I’m filming him. > > DOCTOR (Translation): Are you trying to make fools out of us? We’re this much above you. This much. Don’t make fools of us. We’re not apes in trees. I’m a hard-working surgeon. I work incredibly hard. Aren’t you ashamed? Look for the reasons where they lie and not here with us, hard-working people. The cause lies with the gypsies. They do bugger all. They’re lazy and stupid, look at them, you call that work? They’ve never done a day’s work. That’s what you should look at. Not at the decent, hard-working people. Bastards. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2003, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roma-slovakia-bastards/176900/2 "2003-05-22T22:53:10Z")
My God. How apalling. How’s this for an idea, Kal. Write a complaint to the European Union - Slovakia is one of the states to be included soon. In fact, they’ll have a referendum on it soon, IIRC. Maybe this matter needs a little more attention: it’s obviously a huge human rights violation that could keep Slovakia from entering the EU if given enough press. [http://europa.eu.int](http://europa.eu.int) might be a good start. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roma-slovakia-bastards/176900/3 "2003-05-23T00:21:32Z")
The EU knows about it, **Coldie**. From [here:](http://www.errc.org/publications/letters/2003/czech_republic_apr_9_2003.shtml) > [@](#): > > In response to questions by the members of the European Parliament on the issue, European Union Commissioner responsible for the Enlargement of the European Union Mr. Günter Verheugen stated, on behalf of the European Commission: > > “The Member of the Commission responsible for Enlargement has immediately addressed this issue in a letter to Slovak Prime Minister Dzurinda, underlining that these allegations are a matter of serious concern and if proved to be true, would constitute a serious breach of human rights. He has asked the Slovak authorities to vigorously carry out the necessary investigations, remedy possible discriminatory measures and keep the Commission informed about the proceedings.” The whole article is worth a read, btw. The Helsinki Commission are also getting involved. [This](http://www.csce.gov/press_csce.cfm?press_id=282) is a copy of a letter sent to the Slovak Prime Minister and [here](http://www.csce.gov/press_csce.cfm?press_id=286) is a press release announcing the release of a report about this (And, hey, they acknowledged Roma Nation Day). One negative aspect of this outside interest is that it appears to have the Slovak government (and doctors) in a panic and the fuckers are taking it out the Romani women involved in a piss-poor attempt to get them to shut the fuck up. Did I mention that I thought they were a bunch of bastards? ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roma-slovakia-bastards/176900/4 "2003-05-23T01:04:00Z")
Here’s hoping the Romani women have the strength and the good sense not to shut up just for the some convenience of some bigotted twits of doctors! Be well, my friend, CJ ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roma-slovakia-bastards/176900/5 "2003-05-23T02:25:02Z")
Yeeesh… exactly who is supposed to be “above apes in trees” here? Doesn’t sound like it’s the docs, for sure. And that someone still uses the term “degenerate race” in 2003 is a testament to the resilience of ignorance and hatred. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roma-slovakia-bastards/176900/6 "2003-05-23T02:46:16Z")
Jesus wept. How the hell can doctors - fucking _doctors_ - be that stupid? If being a member of one of the most education-intensive careers on Earth can’t wipe out someone’s ignorance, what hope do any of us here have? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roma-slovakia-bastards/176900/7 "2003-05-23T03:40:54Z")
Bulldoze the national Holocaust museum. It’s obviously not doing any good at all. How many Rom did Hitler kill in his camps? Does that number actually matter if the world turns its back while Slovakia finishes the job? ---
**Author:** ![Nocturne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9fc348/32.png) [@Nocturne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nocturne)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 9:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roma-slovakia-bastards/176900/8 "2003-05-23T09:40:06Z")
Kal. This saddens me to hear this news. My father grew up, basically, with a group of Roma that would camp beside his father’s general store for a few months out of every year. My grandfather, usually a stern, austere man, allowed the Roma to camp there when most people in the Bible Belt-South would’ve spit at them. My father and his four siblings were allowed to hang out with the Roma all they wanted. My grandfather was a hard man in many respects, but I admire him for his stance on this. My father has many wonderful stories about his times with the Roma; some are funny, some are sad–but my father, and his father too, never portray the Roma as anything but people. People just like anyone else. My mother’s family is Cherokee. I thank my lucky stars that I am not living in a world where that part of my heritage (as well as the bit of African-American heritage) is roundly scorned (at least not here, anyway). It saddens me to know that there are people in the world who treat others this way, even though I grew up in a racist environment. (Black vs. white). I pray this will end soon. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roma-slovakia-bastards/176900/9 "2003-05-23T10:28:33Z")
No reply yet… I wrote a few letters after the last thread, and the thread I started about this. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roma-slovakia-bastards/176900/10 "2003-05-23T10:31:25Z")
Ah, my thread: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=163307&highlight=slov\*](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=163307&highlight=slov%2A) The thread that started it. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=161458](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=161458) ---
**Author:** ![Anahita](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a9a28c/32.png) [@Anahita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anahita)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roma-slovakia-bastards/176900/11 "2003-05-23T14:54:13Z")
I can hardly bear to hear some of the stories of what happens to some Roma women who live here in our area. So sad. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2003, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roma-slovakia-bastards/176900/12 "2003-05-23T22:36:51Z")
It’s a disgrace that this can happen in a “civilized” world. Shame, Shame, Shame. ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2003, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roma-slovakia-bastards/176900/13 "2003-05-24T04:25:30Z")
I pointed this out in **Kal** ’s earlier thread on this topic, but I think it bears repeating: The History of Slovakia sections at [www.slovakia.org](http://www.slovakia.org), repeatedly mentions the struggles of the Slovakian people to maintain their own ethnic identity, specifically the “cultural genocide” of the Hungarians and the Nazi atrocities, before finally becoming an independant state in 1993. Apparently now that they have achieved their goal of cultural and ethnic independance they are now entitled to commit the same atrocities that they themselves suffered on another innocent victim. Perhaps in protests to the Slovakian government the irony of this should be pointed out to their political leaders. Preferably with a sledgehammer to the genitals. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roma-slovakia-bastards/176900/14 "2003-05-30T17:47:41Z")
Just found out that the sterilization of Romani women was mentioned in the house of representatives the day before my OP and is now a matter of Congressional Record. Here’s a [Link](http://frwebgate5.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate.cgi?WAISdocID=313055502025+2+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve) to the text version. > [@](#): > > …I am deeply troubled by one particular aspect of the (Slovakian) government’s response to the reports documenting that sterilizations occurred without proper informed consent. > > Shortly after the release in January of a lengthy report on sterilization of Romani women, a spokesperson for the ministry responsible for human rights was quoted in The New York Times as saying: "If we confirm this information, we will expand our charges to the report’s authors, that they knew about a crime for a year and did not report it to a prosecutor. And if we prove it is not true, they will be charged with spreading false information and damaging the good name of Slovakia.’’ > > In other words, if the government’s investigation does not find evidence of coerced sterilization, they intend to make those who dared make the allegation pay a price. And if the government’s investigation does confirm the allegation, they will still make those who made the > allegation pay a price. I believe this is what is meant by the old expression, "Damned if you do, and damned if you don’t.’’ This is really an outrageous threat, and it’s hard to believe that an official responsible for human rights would have made it. > > \ > > Mr. Speaker, these threats raise serious doubts about the breadth and depth of the Slovak Government’s commitment to get at the truth in this disturbing matter. Can the Slovak Government really expect women who may have been sterilized without consent to come forward and cooperate with an investigation with a threat like this hanging over them? A few brave souls may, but I believe these threats have had a substantial chilling effect on the investigative process. **Nocturne** : As you probably know, even nowadays ‘Gypsies’ are often portrayed as fictional fairy tale characters or parasites, romantic free-spirited people or born criminals. For your Grandfather to regard them as nothing more than people was way ahead of it’s time. I’d love to hear some of your father’s stories sometime. On a personal note: My one major regret about my time here on this message board is my decision to be openly Romani. I can’t shake the thought that it was not the best idea I’ve ever had - even more so when I read myself described in an older thread as “our resident Gypsy”. My original motivation to ‘out’ myself (for want of a better word) was just to show that Romani folk are just people like everybody else. Different, but still just people. That and to be able to vent from time to time about bigotry that most people are unaware exists. I think I’ve done that to a degree and, what with the misgivings just mentioned, I’ve made the decision not to talk about my ethnicity anymore. Those of you who’ve read my posts on the subject know who and what I am, those who haven’t don’t need to. Kushti bok to all of you, Kal ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roma-slovakia-bastards/176900/15 "2003-05-30T18:12:50Z")
Goddamn! They ought to sterilize the people who commit such atrocities. I honestly cannot fathom why this is happening in a country that is being considered for EU membership, or that they are still being considered for membership. Kal, I sincerely hope you don’t give up your “identity” here on the boards. I have been turned on to some really important issues through your posts, and I’m sure many dopers feel the same way. ---
**Author:** ![sugaree](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cc9497/32.png) [@sugaree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sugaree)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roma-slovakia-bastards/176900/16 "2003-05-30T18:41:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kal \* > \*\*On a personal note: My one major regret about my time here on this message board is my decision to be openly Romani. I can’t shake the thought that it was not the best idea I’ve ever had - even more so when I read myself described in an older thread as “our resident Gypsy”. > > My original motivation to ‘out’ myself (for want of a better word) was just to show that Romani folk are just people like everybody else. Different, but still just people. That and to be able to vent from time to time about bigotry that most people are unaware exists. > > I think I’ve done that to a degree and, what with the misgivings just mentioned, I’ve made the decision not to talk about my ethnicity anymore. Those of you who’ve read my posts on the subject know who and what I am, those who haven’t don’t need to. \*\* Well, it’s your right to talk or not about your ethnicity, but I am grieved that you regret your openness. This message board should be a fun hobby and an informative waste of time for anyone who participates, and I am sorry that you have experienced any pain here. Remember, once you’re out, you’re out. All those past posts will still be there; people who miss this thread may say something in the future. Personally, I hope you reconsider this. If you have experienced negativity, it is as a result of simple ignorance. You’ve dispelled ignorance in the past; I hope to see you doing so in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Encinitas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@Encinitas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Encinitas)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roma-slovakia-bastards/176900/17 "2003-05-30T19:10:56Z")
Ah **Kal** , please take to heart what **An Arky** and **sugaree** said. I have learned so much from you being ‘out’ on this message board and surely others have too. You are fighting the good fight, here and IRL, against ignorance and its evil spawn: bigotry and racism. I salute you! ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roma-slovakia-bastards/176900/18 "2003-05-30T19:42:56Z")
After the last thread, I wrote a letter to the Slovakian ambassador to the US, who’s apparently a human rights activist. No response. I will write more letters this weekend. This is absolutely appalling. ---
**Author:** ![Kal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9de053/32.png) [@Kal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kal)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roma-slovakia-bastards/176900/19 "2003-05-30T19:58:13Z")
**An Arky** : Thank you for the kind words. Sorry for losing my temper with you several months back. **Sugeree** : Same to you, minus the apology because I’ve never lost my temper with you. And just in case the poster who wrote “Kal - our resident Gypsy” is reading, I love you loads and meant no disrespect to you by citing it as a reason for my decision. It’s just that I feel I’ve become too identifiably ‘Gypsy’ and seeing as anonymity and the need to deny being Romani if asked was drummed into me from an early age - even now none of my neighbours are aware of my ethnicity - that’s not a good feeling. Obviously that’s a side effect of my openness and entirely my doing, of course. I also get angry (very easily, as **An Arky** will vouch for) and that’s not a good thing. If I were to give myself over to my anger about everything being done to Romani people around the world right now (search Google News for ‘macedonia roma’ for an example), everything done to us in the past, every insulting article written in a newspaper and every slur spoken by a politician then not only would I melt down on a weekly basis, but I’d be starting umpteen threads a day and you guys wouldn’t get a look in. Anyway this thread is not about me, so my last words will be to suggest folks Google ‘anti-Gypsyism’ - Not only did I _tell you_ it was a real word (I don’t bloody care if it ain’t in the dictionary), but there’s a few really good articles to be found by doing so. Kal On preview, thanks as well **Encinitas** and good on ya **Kyla** - Just remember that even though he’s a human rights activist, in parts of Europe the Roma are not generally regarded as human.