# Roman Ancestry? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 3, 2002, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-ancestry/130732 "2002-10-03T20:35:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-ancestry/130732/21 "2013-04-18T21:59:34Z")
With only very minor nobility on the family, an uncle traced our family to the 13th century. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-ancestry/130732/22 "2013-04-18T23:25:24Z")
> [@Asympotically\_fat](#): > > I can quite reliably trace by ancestry back to the 13th century just from a few fairly simple internet searches. > > There’s a few Lords and a Lord Justice and a lot of baronets, but no-one of prime importance in the lineage I can trace. Since I can benefit from the 10 years statute of limitation for “being wrong on the internet”, I now admit freely to the fact that I was indeed wrong on this topic in 2002. I failed to take into account descent in female line, as far as I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-ancestry/130732/23 "2013-04-18T23:44:07Z")
I thought the rule was **10 days**! I’m fucked. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-ancestry/130732/24 "2013-04-18T23:51:43Z")
> [@Gewnpen](#): > > I to am a decedent Oh dear, I hope not! But you are apparently still alive. Never heard of anyone posting from beyond the grave. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-ancestry/130732/25 "2013-04-19T00:06:39Z")
My wife was into genealogy in a serious way. Her ancestors came from Normandy and since they were landed gentry, their names were recorded as a matter of record. So, she had a traceable bloodline back to 915 CE. Those people eventually came across the Channel during the conquest and were given lands in the Channel Isles. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-ancestry/130732/26 "2013-04-19T09:38:04Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > There are two kinds of people: the people who can trace their ancestry, and the people whose ancestry records were burned by the first kind. I belong to the second kind of people. And those who can trace their ancestry because the father of the person who had the records burned had made copies. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-ancestry/130732/27 "2013-04-19T10:12:54Z")
What about Sid Caesar? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-ancestry/130732/28 "2013-04-19T11:28:15Z")
Johanna: > [@](#): > > Never heard of anyone posting from beyond the grave. Not even in a zombie thread? ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-ancestry/130732/29 "2013-07-07T16:30:39Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > There are too many obvious fallacies in this post to counter them all. First of all, I was _not_ talking about direct male descent. Queen Elizabeth (and all royals in Europe) are known descendents of Charlemagne. This is not a disputable fact. > > Secondly, there are not two distinct groups of people: the nobles and commons for the last 1000+ years. People intermarry. > > I will give a couple of examples from my own genealogy. > > I am descended from Hannah Schenck (1833-1863). My mother has old photos of two of her (longer lived) brothers. Hannah came from one of the most prominent early Dutch families of New York (New Amsterdam). One of her ancestors was the first European settler on Long Island. There are shelves of books on the genealogy of these familes. Her ggggg-grandfather was Martin Schenck van Nydeck (1584-1650). The first Schenck in America. Martin’s ancestors were minor nobles in Holland. His g-grandfather was Lord of Afferden. From there, you’re in the Dutch Royal Family database. You soon hit Adelheit van Buren (heard of the van Burens?) and thence into more prominent nobles, etc. up to Judith, princess of the West Franks and then Charles de Groot (as he is given in the Dutch databases). > > Given the family’s prominence and success and the centuries involved, I would guesstimate that 10% of all Americans are descended from these early Dutch families. Other prominent families from that era include the Brokaws (as in Tom) and the Bogarts (as in Humphrey). And thus also descended from Charlemagne just via this one branch alone. And there’s a lot of other branches to consider. > > Example 2. I wanted to find a direct link to the old Norwegian kings on my father’s side. What I had to start with: a family history written in the 1920’s that lists my g-grandfather’s generation and 3 generations back (to before 1800). The family history has since been confirmed by Norwegian parish and census records. I found all of the ancestors alive at the time in the 1801 Norwegian national census available at the [Digital Archive](http://digitalarkivet.uib.no/cgi-win/WebFront.exe?slag=vis&tekst=meldingar&spraak=e). > > One of the ancestor’s listed in the family census was living with her parents and a very old grandfather in the 1801 census. Tracking down the grandfather in parish records and earlier censuses led me to his grandfather (with the same name on the same farm) who lived (c1642-1714). That’s far enough back to use a really great GedCom file [austring](http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=austring&I11.x=26&I11.y=6) that covers many of the prominent people in Rogaland going back to the early kings. It is extrememly well documented (unlike 99% of the GedComs out there). In no time I was linked to Sæbjørn Toresson (1510-1578). Quoting from the [austring file](http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=austring&id=I2395): > > “Most persons with roots in Ryfylke (Rogaland) can trace descent through Sæbjørn Toresson, back to a number of famous Scandinavians of the Middle Ages, including many of the Norwegian, Danish and Swedish kings between Harald Fairhair and Håkon IV.” > > The file gives the actual links to Harald Fairhair (860-943). From there, you move into the Kings of the sagas, which give another 1000 years of genealogy to Njord of Noatun, god-King of the Swedes. > > Note that almost everyone with an ancestor from Rogaland is therefore descended from a known line going back around 2000 years (at least 1400 of which is historical). You just need to know how to get back to someone relatively prominent in the 1801 census or earlier. > > If you have an ancestor from Buskerud Amt in Norway, there’s similar files giving links back to Halvdan “the Black”. And no doubt likewise for the other Norwegian counties. Just reviving this to point out that the last few paragraphs are only true if one has a very loose definition of what constitutes documentation. No modern day scholarly (i.e. relying on good evidence instead of guesswork and heavy conjecture) genealogist recognizes any Norwegian family line going beyond the black death, except for the top noble lines, and even those fall apart well before you reach the Viking age and Harald Fairhair. There are however lots of sources for dubious lineages going back that far, but they all rely on shoddy analysis of available records or outright fraud, some of it commited by 18th and 19th century academics and accepted as gospel by 20th century genealogists. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-ancestry/130732/30 "2013-07-07T22:53:07Z")
I’m a direct descendant of Edward the Childless. ---
**Author:** ![Pai325](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Pai325](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pai325)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-ancestry/130732/31 "2013-07-07T23:07:41Z")
I enjoy genealogy, but go back not too far and we were German peasants. No real records, even though I’ve been to the little Bavarian town they came from and to the archives in Regensburg. That line just stops around 1820. My English line stops in the early 1700s. They just weren’t important enough, so I know I will never get to Roman ancestry. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-ancestry/130732/32 "2013-07-07T23:10:23Z")
So, your father was a Woman, was he? ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2013, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-ancestry/130732/33 "2013-07-07T23:25:33Z")
Yes, Naughtius Maximus. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-ancestry/130732/34 "2013-07-08T11:11:45Z")
My family are dull, both sides lived in the Home Counties and did diddly-squat as domestic servants as far back as I can trace into the 18th Century ☹ ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-ancestry/130732/35 "2013-07-08T14:31:52Z")
Given the ethnic mixing that took place in Europe over the past 2000 years, I would be surprised if there are any white people who have _no_ Ancient Roman ancestry. The Romans were everywhere - Spain, Gaul, Britain, Greece, Egypt, Judea, Libya, Asia Minor. Also, the Romans were a military and economic empire rather than a big happy family old boys club - There were people who would have been, say, of German, Greek, or Egyptian ethnic origin who were Roman citizens and presumably married into other Roman families, making everyone multi-ethnic to some extent. The Vikings likewise traveled widely and would have left their DNA all over the place, even beyond Scandinavia. The Viking influence in the British Isles was tremendous and anyone with any British ancestry is almost certainly a Viking in some way. The Danelaw in England influenced the English language in England, and the Germanic Scots dialect is arguably more Scandinavian than English English. Despite being a garment associated primarily with Celts, the actual word “kilt” comes from a Scandinavian word meaning to tuck. Both the Scots and the French have a hybrid ethnic identity composed of Celtic and Germanic elements. There aren’t really any “pure ethnic \s” anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-ancestry/130732/36 "2013-07-08T16:49:00Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > My family are dull, both sides lived in the Home Counties and did diddly-squat as domestic servants as far back as I can trace into the 18th Century ☹ Nine generations you’ll have 512 ancestors you could potentially trace through (if none are the same). Maybe there’s something more interesting to be found. ---
**Author:** ![Bozuit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/edb3f5/32.png) [@Bozuit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bozuit)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-ancestry/130732/37 "2013-07-08T17:32:59Z")
Sorry, I suppose I meant to say “Nine generations ago …” or something. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-ancestry/130732/38 "2013-07-09T12:20:54Z")
Been away from the board a lot lately, so just now noticing this. Anyway, there have been several threads similar to the OPs and quite related to the revival post (RP?) over the years. The advantage people in those later threads have is being able to post a link to the Wikipedia page on [Descent From Antiquity](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent_from_antiquity). OTOH, that page keeps getting munged with and is currently in a poor state. But it’s a place to start reading. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-ancestry/130732/39 "2013-07-09T13:04:20Z")
When I started to research my tree, I discovered that there are two distinct kinds of genealogist: One group happily latches on to the smallest link, coincidence or similarity, and the other will not accept anything that is not supported by original documents. It is no coincidence that the first group can trace their ancestry a lot further back than the latter. Whether their tree is accurate, or just a collection of random names, is open to conjecture. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2013, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-ancestry/130732/40 "2013-07-09T13:15:56Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > When I started to research my tree, I discovered that there are two distinct kinds of genealogist: One group happily latches on to the smallest link, coincidence or similarity, and the other will not accept anything that is not supported by original documents. > > It is no coincidence that the first group can trace their ancestry a lot further back than the latter. Whether their tree is accurate, or just a collection of random names, is open to conjecture. I’ve found stuff compiled by the first group while looking for information about my distant US cousins where they’d uncritically used the US census and added two people with the same name and birth year as one person with two wives and all the accompanying children. When one does such things, or accept data from others without checking if they’re the kind of person who does such things, one isn’t a genealogist, but a name collector. And without going to official or first hand sources you never know if somewhere in the chain from the data you’re offered and the original source there isn’t a name collector who’s just accepted something that sort of fit what they were looking for. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-ancestry/130732.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-ancestry/130732.md?page=3)