# Roman dodecahedron - what do you think it was for? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 18, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945 "2011-06-18T17:14:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/21 "2011-06-19T16:23:33Z")
It’s a game. You put it in the middle of the table with the largest hole facing up. everyone flips coins at it until one goes in - the person who flipped it wins the coins on the table, then the device is turned to the next smallest hole. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/22 "2011-06-19T17:23:36Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > It’s a game. You put it in the middle of the table with the largest hole facing up. everyone flips coins at it until one goes in - the person who flipped it wins the coins on the table, then the device is turned to the next smallest hole. or instead of coins, lentils. as some sort of betting game. Though if you use them to toss, you can bet on whos hole is larger/smaller sort of like a strange sort of craps - though they had perfectly good dice made of knucklebones already. ---
**Author:** ![Weigelia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Weigelia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weigelia)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/23 "2011-06-19T19:01:06Z")
It reminds me of something my dad made for me when I was 7 or 8yrs. old. He took a wooden spool and tacked nails in one end. I used it as a ‘knitting machine’. I made sweaters & blankets for Barbie! I guess it could have been attached to a handle and been used as a back-scratcher. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/24 "2011-06-19T19:32:56Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > It’s a game. You put it in the middle of the table with the largest hole facing up. everyone flips coins at it until one goes in - the person who flipped it wins the coins on the table, then the device is turned to the next smallest hole. That is completely convincing. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/25 "2011-06-19T20:20:44Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > They look like some kind of tinkertoy connector. Insert rods between them to create some sort of geodesic structure. Different size holes for different length rods? The knobs are for lacing cords to hold the whole thing together. Like a fixture for a tent; holes for the poles and knobs for the cords. ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/26 "2011-06-19T20:59:53Z")
They’re leftovers from when they were fighting the barbarians - Barbarians rolled them after each hit to see how much damage they did with their greataxes. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/27 "2011-06-19T21:44:39Z")
Benwa Balls ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/28 "2011-06-19T22:33:11Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > Like a fixture for a tent; holes for the poles and knobs for the cords. I think we are onto something. Some kind of tent hardware would probably not warrant historical mention, because it has no cultural value. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/29 "2011-06-19T23:28:59Z")
> [@Scissorjack](#): > > Benwa Balls Something to do with sex, possibly involving the scrotum or penis… I have it! Penis Twister! You have to weave your penis through the holes bases on the number of concentric circles around the holes. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/30 "2011-06-20T00:21:52Z")
> [@Weigelia](#): > > It reminds me of something my dad made for me when I was 7 or 8yrs. old. He took a wooden spool and tacked nails in one end. I used it as a ‘knitting machine’. I made sweaters & blankets for Barbie! > I guess it could have been attached to a handle and been used as a back-scratcher. > 😃 It does sort of resemble a French knitting bobbin- and the.differently- sized holes would enable the working of different thicknesses of yarn, but in this case, we should expect opposite holes to be the same size.as one another. Thing is, the knobs on the corners really look like they are there to make it stand properly any way up. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/31 "2011-06-20T09:14:06Z")
If I can find detailed measurements and specs for these, I’m going to make one to have a play with. I must admit, the things are smaller than i first thought- which I think points more toward the.notion that they are for some kind of measuring or surveying, than gamep.lay ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/32 "2011-06-20T09:43:20Z")
It’s quite clearly a “holey” hand grenade. ---
**Author:** ![PlainJain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5daacb/32.png) [@PlainJain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlainJain)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/33 "2011-06-20T11:29:40Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > [Roman dodecahedron - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_dodecahedron) > I think the dice theory is correct. Even the Romans would have soon realized that the differing sized holes would have resulted in an unfair die. I vote no on the dice theory. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/34 "2011-06-20T13:54:06Z")
The balls on the corners make it impractical as a die anyway. They would serve no purpose in that function, and would just snap off in use. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/35 "2011-06-20T15:25:57Z")
Thank you for bringing this up. I’d never heard or read of them. It seems clear to me that the “feet” are intended to make it stand, an that it can stand on any of the faces. Because of the way it was made, one face must always be upright. Until I saw the one photo with the coin, I had no idea of the scale. These are much smaller than I thought. I don’t think they’re dice – our own familiarity wityh dodecahedtral dice prejudices us, I think. A hundred years ago, before Dragon Dice, people wouldn’t be likely to sa it. I also doubt the theory of pipe sizing – the thing appears too small for most pipes, and you would think that the sides would be labeled with the names/numbers for sizes. They don’t appear to be. I am not familiar with what Plato is supposed to have written. I do know that, as long as we don’t know what this is, we can’t say that “the Romans never wrote about them”. There are other items that they never descrinbed, or wrote of in only one surviving reference, or the like. My vote: It’s a candle. You fill the interior space with wax or fat (wax has reportedly been found in one), then push in a bit of cloth or string for a wick. If you want to get fancy, push in twelve of them, one for each face. No matter how you put it down, it stays wick-up. Note that I do not say candle-_holder_. This was, I suggest, a quick and dirty way to make a candle itself, the bronze dodecahedron acting as suppport for the ball of fat or wax that you put in there, the whole thing resting on a table. It was a novelty (Romans preferred oil lamps – they had plenty of them, in bronze or pottery. I’ve seen very few references to – you should pardon the expression – Roman Candles. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/36 "2011-06-20T19:14:52Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > My vote: It’s a candle. You fill the interior space with wax or fat (wax has reportedly been found in one), then push in a bit of cloth or string for a wick. If you want to get fancy, push in twelve of them, one for each face. No matter how you put it down, it stays wick-up. > Note that I do not say candle-_holder_. This was, I suggest, a quick and dirty way to make a candle itself, the bronze dodecahedron acting as suppport for the ball of fat or wax that you put in there, the whole thing resting on a table. It was a novelty (Romans preferred oil lamps – they had plenty of them, in bronze or pottery. I’ve seen very few references to – you should pardon the expression – Roman Candles. If you filled it with wax and inserted a wick, the metal would conduct the heat, melting the wax and it would all run out of the holes in the sides and bottom - my very own [Lard Lamp](http://www.atomicshrimp.com/st/content/lard_lamp/) exploits this effect - although it’s possible that the dodecahedrons are intended to be wick holders used in a similar way - for use in a dish of fat or wax. But the fact they’ve got an assortment of different-sized holes is the real puzzle (unless… maybe… the wick is intended to burn inside the device and the different-sized holes project different amounts of light (like a sort of dimmer - although I’m struggling to think why anyone would want to dim a fat lamp) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/37 "2011-06-20T19:22:51Z")
This might be a bit of a long shot, but could they be a demonstration/practice piece made to demonstrate skill in metalworking? - I’ve seen modern apprentice demonstration pieces that were similarly ornate/complex, and with obscure or no use. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/38 "2011-06-20T19:41:59Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > This might be a bit of a long shot, but could they be a demonstration/practice piece made to demonstrate skill in metalworking? - I’ve seen modern apprentice demonstration pieces that were similarly ornate/complex, and with obscure or no use. I was thinking about that too. A good way to practice cutting straight edges, circles, scribing concentric circles, welding etc. The fact that there were about 100 of these found could imply that this was a project that one teacher did for his students. Of course, they seem to be fairly scattered and you’d think if there was someone was that well known that people were traveling that far to learn from him we’d know about it…maybe not. I’m still thinking it could just be nothing more then household decoration with no real meaning. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/39 "2011-06-20T21:25:14Z")
I came across images for [Turner’s cubes](http://www.google.com/search?q=%22turner%27s+cube%22&hl=en&safe=off&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Wbr_TfP7L-vRiAK-j4HJCg&ved=0CCUQsAQ) when I was Googling around. Maybe not related, but those are fascinating. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/40 "2011-06-20T22:13:38Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > I came across images for [Turner’s cubes](http://www.google.com/search?q=%22turner%27s+cube%22&hl=en&safe=off&prmd=ivns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Wbr_TfP7L-vRiAK-j4HJCg&ved=0CCUQsAQ) when I was Googling around. Maybe not related, but those are fascinating. Oddly enough, going back to the theory that the Roman dodecahedron could be for teaching metal working students, the Turner’s Cubes are for teaching students learning to use CNC machines. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945.md?page=3)