# Roman dodecahedron - what do you think it was for? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 18, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945 "2011-06-18T17:14:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/81 "2011-06-25T06:58:49Z")
Perhaps a component of a chastity belt? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/82 "2011-06-25T08:39:00Z")
The fact that they’re all different sizes, and especially after seeing that English one, I don’t see how they were engineered precise and uniform enough for anything accurate like gauging pipes or coins. Although the crop sowing time theory is interesting, would there not have to be distinguishing marks on the different sides for that to really work? Yes, the holes are all different sizes apparently, but is the arrangement and proportions consistent across all examples? The big question for me is why these are only found in certain provinces - mostly the Germanic/Gaulic ones, from what I can tell. Why none in Judea? Why not Greece? Why none in Italia itself? It’s not like Judean or Greek Roman-period archaeology is lagging behind that of Western Europe. Which would point to a cultural use rather than a practical engineering use, to me. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/83 "2011-06-25T08:40:31Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Perhaps a component of a chastity belt? Have you seen \*Rome \*and _Spartacus_? It seems like the Romans had no “chastity” concept in their culture at all;) ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/84 "2011-06-25T09:11:27Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The big question for me is why these are only found in certain provinces - mostly the Germanic/Gaulic ones, from what I can tell. Why none in Judea? Why not Greece? Why none in Italia itself? It’s not like Judean or Greek Roman-period archaeology is lagging behind that of Western Europe. Which would point to a cultural use rather than a practical engineering use, to me. It could have a practical use necessitated by local resources. For example, if these wre candle holders, were candles the primary artificial light souce in Gaul and Germany as opposed to oil lamps along the Mediterranean? ---
**Author:** ![Billerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c2a13f/32.png) [@Billerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billerius)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/85 "2011-06-25T09:33:08Z")
I’ve just seen a dodo fragment in the Museum of London that has _three balls_ at each vertex. ---
**Author:** ![Billerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c2a13f/32.png) [@Billerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billerius)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/86 "2011-06-25T09:36:27Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > It could have a practical use necessitated by local resources. For example, if these wre candle holders, were candles the primary artificial light souce in Gaul and Germany as opposed to oil lamps along the Mediterranean? The annoying thing is that they just appear - fully formed - in the record and don’t evolve. Makes me reluctantly favour a faddish, “ritual” purpose by some flash-in-the-pan local cult. ---
**Author:** ![Billerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c2a13f/32.png) [@Billerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billerius)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/87 "2011-06-25T09:38:14Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Or, someone needed something to hold a candle, and re-purposed a dodecahedron. Like teenagers use empty wine bottles for candles, but we don’t conclude that’s what wine bottles are for? ---
**Author:** ![Billerius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c2a13f/32.png) [@Billerius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billerius)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/88 "2011-06-25T09:43:14Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > The isocahedron looks like a pomander or incense burner to me. Although it shares some features, I’m not convinced it’s the same category of object. Totally agree, though the style would make it Assyrian. I have a charcoal burner for incense that shares features with the dodo. You put charcoal in the chamber through the big hole and burn incense in a little dish on the top. The legs keep it out of the ash. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/89 "2011-06-25T11:02:34Z")
> [@T.Slothrop](#): > > thimbles for masochists. I know it’s common to take any odd phrase and say ‘band name’, but damn, that would be an excellent one. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/90 "2011-06-28T00:31:41Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The big question for me is why these are only found in certain provinces - mostly the Germanic/Gaulic ones, from what I can tell. Why none in Judea? Why not Greece? Why none in Italia itself? It’s not like Judean or Greek Roman-period archaeology is lagging behind that of Western Europe. Which would point to a cultural use rather than a practical engineering use, to me. Hmmm … Or a local variant on a practical tool? ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/91 "2011-06-28T00:39:22Z")
It’s a puzzle. You’re missing a string and a couple wood pieces. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/92 "2011-07-02T08:27:36Z")
> [@Harmonious\_Discord](#): > > It’s a puzzle. You’re missing a string and a couple wood pieces. This is where my thinking was going too. Imagine you have several wooden balls/disks of differing sizes inside the dodecahedron, joined together with string. You have to get them all out of the the dodo, together with the string, without having the string irreparably tangled up. A Roman Rubik’s Cube. ---
**Author:** ![Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b38774/32.png) [@Swords\_to\_Plowshares](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swords_to_Plowshares)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2011, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/93 "2011-07-02T14:29:24Z")
Speaking of dice, does anyone on the Internet sell RPG dice made in the style of these things? ---
**Author:** ![Becky2844](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Becky2844](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Becky2844)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/94 "2011-07-03T06:21:48Z")
my aunt had one of these. she called it her “cigarette put-er-outer.” it sat in the middle of her big ashtray. every night when she finished her last cigarette she’d stub it out in that thing because she knew it’d go out. then right before she went to bed she could safely empty the ashtray. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/95 "2011-07-05T11:25:44Z")
It’a a radio, for talking to God! ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2011, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/96 "2011-07-05T11:59:05Z")
> [@BMalion](#): > > It’a a radio, for talking to God! Ah, with a separate port for each one! ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/97 "2011-09-01T22:59:43Z")
An engineer has [published a paper in EEweb](http://www.scribd.com/fullscreen/63592753/EEWeb-Pulse-Issue-9-2011) (PDF) that he claims is the definitive explanation of the purpose for the roman dodecahedrons, but I’ll be damned if it makes any sense to me: > [@](#): > > The Roman Dodecahedron is an ancient bronze (or sometimes stone) artifact that has turned up by the hundreds and looks like a highly optimized characterization device. I don’t know what a “characterization device” is. > [@](#): > > We think that the Roman [COLOR=#231f20]Dodecahedron was used to record the three dimensional shape of an object under study by measuring the fluid displacement of the object under various angles and depth of immersion. Still not clear what he means, but the real puzzling part is yet to come:[/COLOR] > [@](#): > > They attached the object to be tested (e.g., a projectile) into the dodecahedron by means of a flexible support (most likely wood or wax) that was wedged between two interior vertices (or“corner reflectors”). They put the dodecahedron into a bowl and repeatedly added fixed amounts of water to the bowl, probably using something equivalent to an Erlenmeyer flask for high accuracy. Each time water was poured into [COLOR=#231f20]the bowl, the fluid level would rise in accordance with Archimedes principle. The degree to which the fluid level rose would depend upon the displacement “slice” of the object being measured, and this fluid level would be recorded into the 12 columns of displacement data representing the 12 angles under study. By performing this measurement on all faces, a reasonable rendering of a smooth shape could be performed, if they had only had a computer at their disposal. Of course we are not suggesting they had a computer or even rendered.[/COLOR] [COLOR=#231f20]D’oh! :smack:[/COLOR] > [@](#): > > [COLOR=#231f20][COLOR=#231f20][COLOR=#231f20]What matters is that the data set is unique to the device being tested and can be compared with other devices for a type of one dimensional quality control. By maintaining a high quality control of perhaps projectile manufacturing, a greater kill ratio of the Roman army could be achieved. Laser scanners today are used for quality control, and the Roman Dodecahedron could have easily been used at that time with only 18 minutes of recording effort for the device under study. It was practical and it was useful. It would even be useful if placed side by side with the micrometer in every hardware store on the planet.[/COLOR] > [/COLOR][/COLOR] So they were able collect 18 degrees of data that would be useful if only they had a computer? What is the point? Why would they need hundreds (or thousands, assuming we have found only a fraction of them) of these devices for analyzing shapes of projectiles? How many Romans were engaged in this sort of analysis? Is this guy trying to baffle us with bullshit? Or is he just another engineer who is obsessed with the technical to the exclusion of the practical? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/98 "2011-09-01T23:32:05Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Is this guy trying to baffle us with bullshit? Or is he just another engineer who is obsessed with the technical to the exclusion of the practical? One of the two. I pretty much understand what he’s getting at, but he’s wrong about what that method would measure, how accurate that would be, and how useful the results. He’s joking, or bonkers. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/99 "2011-09-02T01:02:42Z")
One Roman to another: “What are you making? It looks weird.” “I know, _right?_ I’m gonna make hundreds of these to fuck with the heads of future generations.” “Right on . . . You should add some balls on the corners…” ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2011, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945/100 "2011-09-02T01:06:53Z")
You pack that think with dirt, and you have a pretty kickass plant holder. Or, I wonder if its some kind of platonic bong? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedron-what-do-you-think-it-was-for/585945.md?page=6)