# \[Roman\] Dodecahedrons **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 27, 2023, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459 "2023-02-27T21:46:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Retzbu\_Tox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/retzbu_tox/32/11829_2.png) [@Retzbu\_Tox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Retzbu_Tox)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/241 "2024-01-21T18:24:19Z")
One of the items in the “Pompeii Sorceress Kit” somewhat resembles a Roman dodecahedron and supposedly suggests a cultic, ritual, or magical use for such items. [![](https://static.frieze.com/files/inline-images/editorial-monili-regio-v-foto-cesare-abbate-ansa-2-1024x682.jpeg) ](https://static.frieze.com/files/inline-images/editorial-monili-regio-v-foto-cesare-abbate-ansa-2-1024x682.jpeg) [![](https://static.frieze.com/files/inline-images/monili-regio-v-foto-cesare-abbate-ansa-9-1024x682.jpeg) ](https://static.frieze.com/files/inline-images/monili-regio-v-foto-cesare-abbate-ansa-9-1024x682.jpeg) > **[In Pictures: The Miraculous Treasure of a Pompeii Sorceress](https://www.frieze.com/article/pictures-miraculous-treasure-pompeii-sorceress)** > > More than 100 objects were discovered by archaeologists investigating the ancient Roman site ---
**Author:** ![Retzbu\_Tox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/retzbu_tox/32/11829_2.png) [@Retzbu\_Tox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Retzbu_Tox)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/242 "2024-01-21T18:49:55Z")
The dodecahedron with zodiac markings is in a museum in Geneva at the Cathedral of Saint Pierre. It is solid, made of lead and plated with silver, has no holes, has no knobs on the vertices, and dates to a century or two later than the hollow bronze knobby dodecahedrons. It shows up on some of the lists of Roman dodecahedrons, but it does not seem similar enough to me. [![](https://dynamic-media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-o/12/54/38/96/img-20180314-104649-largejpg.jpg?w=1000&h=-1&s=1) ](https://dynamic-media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-o/12/54/38/96/img-20180314-104649-largejpg.jpg?w=1000&h=-1&s=1) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/243 "2024-01-21T18:57:18Z")
Those slashes could just be remnants of whatever blending technique was used to fix the wax pieces together prior to the lost wax casting, but all of these variations in form do sort of lead me back to the notion that maybe these were objects that were made by a metalworker who had only received a description of the object. Some examples have inscribed ring markings that concentrically encircle the holes. Others have small circular decorations that sort of orbit the holes, and this one has inscribed marks along the edges - could it be that these are all the result of what happens when you give a bronze worker a description such as ‘a hole in each face, with inscribed lines around each hole’? ---
**Author:** ![Uniqueorn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uniqueorn/32/2807_2.png) [@Uniqueorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uniqueorn)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/244 "2024-01-21T19:26:18Z")
Silly little idea, but I asked ChatGPT if those dodecahedrons could have been the centrepiece of an ancient umbrella and what it might have looked like. This would explain the regional distribution, as France, Belgium, Germany, Netherlands & Britain were probably wetter than other parts of the empire. Edit: 422 error when uploading images? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/245 "2024-01-21T19:41:13Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > could it be that these are all the result of what happens when you give a bronze worker a description such as ‘a hole in each face, with inscribed lines around each hole’? I had a “magic kit” when I was a kid, with various self-working tricks (you know, so even a kid could do them). One of them was a board with a grid of various “mystical” symbols, and your mark was supposed to make various choices to ultimately end up on one of the symbols, and then you’d open an envelope that said which one they picked. Inside the envelope, it said “Three circles”, and there were (IIRC) four different spots on the board with (different) symbols consisting of three circles, any of which they might have landed on. ---
**Author:** ![Retzbu\_Tox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/retzbu_tox/32/11829_2.png) [@Retzbu\_Tox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Retzbu_Tox)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/246 "2024-01-21T20:12:31Z")
> [@Uniqueorn](#): > > Silly little idea, but I asked ChatGPT if those dodecahedrons could have been the centrepiece of an ancient umbrella and what it might have looked like. This would explain the regional distribution, as France, Belgium, Germany, Netherlands & Britain were probably wetter than other parts of the empire. > > Edit: 422 error when uploading images? Google provides me lots of links to sites that say the Roman umbraculum was most likely constructed the same as a “modern” umbrella. The Roman Catholic Church still uses an umbraculum as part of papal traditions. No parts look like dodecahedrons. Functionally, I don’t see how a dodecahedron would be useful in an umbrella. If your handle goes in vertically, it passes through the center of the dodecahedron, filling up much of that area. You could insert five spokes that stick out and down at an angle, but they wouldn’t go in far before they hit the handle stick. You wouldn’t need five spokes going up and out at an angle, so almost half the holes would serve no purpose. Nothing about it would lend toward an ability to fold open and closed. Considering the holes are normally all different sizes, why would your umbraculum specifically need five spokes all of different diameters? The dodecahedron’s form really does not suit the function of being an umbraculum part. Culturally, only Roman women used an umbraculum. Men considered them effeminate. Yet dodecahedrons often show up in areas associated with the Roman military where few people would have been willing to carry an umbraculum. Lots of Roman women carried an umbraculum to keep the sun off their skin, yet no dodecahedrons have been found in Italy where far more likely there would have been women using an umbraculum. The distribution of where dodecahedra have been found does not match the locations where people would more likely have been carrying an umbraculum. I don’t think _ **anyone** _ can upload images in their posts. Instead, insert a link to where the image is externally hosted. ---
**Author:** ![motu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/motu/32/259_2.png) [@motu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/motu)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/247 "2024-01-21T20:24:12Z")
Thank you for those pics Retzbu\_Tox ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/248 "2024-01-21T21:52:38Z")
> [@Retzbu\_Tox](#): > > Functionally, I don’t see how a dodecahedron would be useful in an umbrella. I could see how a robust dodecahedron type object might function as a the hub for constructing the roof of a tent or something. Poles jammed into various holes, knobs onto which lines can be laced, or over which leather buttonholes can be secured, but it would be a weird solution for a problem that doesn’t really require so complex an object to solve. ---
**Author:** ![Retzbu\_Tox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/retzbu_tox/32/11829_2.png) [@Retzbu\_Tox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Retzbu_Tox)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/249 "2024-01-21T22:14:18Z")
I’ve seen this list of suggested dodecahedron uses on a few sites, along with arguments about how there is no proof for any of them, or they are rather unlikely, or that some are just dead wrong, - A specific type of dice for a game since lost to history. - A magical object, possibly from the Celtic religion. A similar small, hollow object with protrusions was recovered from Pompeii in a box with either jewellery or items for magic. - A toy for children. - A weight for fishing nets. - The head of a chieftain’s scepter. - A kind of musical instrument. - A tool to estimate distances and survey land, especially for military purposes. - An instrument to estimate the size of and distance to objects on the battlefield for the benefit of the artillery. - A device for detecting counterfeit coins. - A calendar for determining the spring and autumn equinoxes and/or the optimal date for sowing wheat. - A candle holder. (Wax residue was found in one or two of the objects recovered.) - A connector for metal or wooden poles. - A knitting tool specifically for gloves. (That would explain why no dodecahedrons were found in the warmer regions of the Empire.) - A gauge to calibrate water pipes. - A base for eagle standards. (Each Roman legion carried a symbolic bird on a staff into battle.) - An astrological device used for fortune-telling. (Inscribed on a dodecahedron found in Geneva in 1982 were the Latin names for the 12 signs of the zodiac.) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/250 "2024-01-22T00:17:11Z")
> [@Retzbu\_Tox](#): > > A knitting tool specifically for gloves. (That would explain why no dodecahedrons were found in the warmer regions of the Empire.) So would candle holders. Warmer regions tended to use lamps that burn oil or fat in it’s liquid state Edit: however a culture that used oil lamps made of fired clay would probably make candle holders from the same material, I would think, and also would probably style them for similar usability, such as putting a handle on one side so they can be easily carried. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/251 "2024-01-22T02:29:44Z")
Some of those proposed uses face the objection that you could do the same job with a much simpler object, and some face the objection of “well, but how would they have used it for that?”. Like, for instance, a surveying tool would certainly justify the amount of craftsmanship in one of these, but how would it be useful for that? You also have to contend with the fact that they’re not entirely consistent in their traits: For instance, some but not all have clear distinctions between their faces. The ones with distinctions could be used as dice, but not the ones without. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/252 "2024-01-22T02:30:44Z")
The Asian dodecahedra vary from the Roman ones in that the holes are all the same size. It appears that one feature of the Roman ones is that the holes were deliberately made of different sizes. As I wrote above, this is a generalisation, some have every hole different, some have some overlap in sizes. I suspect this is an important aspect of the design. There was a desire to, at least symbolically, make each face distinct - although being able to tell one from another visually wasn’t important. They weren’t a useful die. Nor measuring instrument. The trouble with a dodecahedron is that there are not exactly a large number of Platonic solids, and only so many ways to make them. There are without doubt going to be parallel paths to the same result. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/253 "2024-01-22T02:36:43Z")
Certainly not everything that’s a dodecahedron is related. The Zodiac-sign die, for instance, probably isn’t. But “hollow dodecahedron, with a circular hole in every face, and a knob at ever vertex” sounds pretty specific, especially since we haven’t found other Platonic solids like that (though there’s an icosahedron without the big circular holes, and an irregular solid, both of which do have the knobs). ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/254 "2024-01-22T06:32:57Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > however a culture that used oil lamps made of fired clay would probably make candle holders from the same material, I would think The Romans used plenty of _bronze_ oil lamps, as I’ve linked to before, so that objection doesn’t work. I mean, they did _also_ make clay candlesticks. However, their actual existing candlesticks, [bronze](https://romanlincolnshire.wordpress.com/2017/06/02/bacchus-candlestick-branston/) or [clay](https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/object/G_1904-0204-1239), look nothing like dodecahedrons. They look just like later candlesticks. [![](https://romanlincolnshire.files.wordpress.com/2017/06/branston-candlestick.jpg) ](https://romanlincolnshire.files.wordpress.com/2017/06/branston-candlestick.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/255 "2024-01-22T08:56:39Z")
I think you absolutely nailed the juxtaposition of puzzling factors here; the dodecahedra are elaborately crafted in many cases, and have features - in particular the varying sizes of hole - that appear to have some deliberate purpose to them. It’s easy enough to cook up an idea that explains some factors, but the ideas that fit best in one way tend to be absurd in others. Every time I think hard about these things, I change my mind. I’m now back to thinking maybe they were intended as some sort of retort - a lot of roman glass medicine/cosmetic bottles were very small and tapered in shape and would not stand up on their own; a dodecahedron with a variety of different sized holes would work as a stand or retort for a variety of different-sized small bottles; it would also allow them to be warmed by standing the apparatus in a pot of warm water, to melt and loosen the contents of the bottle, allowing it to be applied in small dabs with a brush, yet keeping both hands free. Here is an example of such a glass bottle: [https://p1.liveauctioneers.com/5584/243868/126452380\_1\_x.jpg?height=310&quality=70&version=1649795396](https://p1.liveauctioneers.com/5584/243868/126452380_1_x.jpg?height=310&quality=70&version=1649795396) Except the problem with this is that it’s a highly specific use case, and although there are numerous examples of tapered bottles, the majority of Roman glass vials appear to have flat bottoms and could stand up on their own. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/256 "2024-01-22T16:55:34Z")
> [@Francis\_Vaughan](#): > > But the rarity of the artefacts is also puzzling. Echoing that they might not be rare based only found specimens. Not a direct correlation of course, but for example there are only about 40 T-rex skeletons vs the just shy of 2 billion that once lived. Compare that to the 120 or so found dodecahedrons - that suggests to me that there are probably many more that have yet to be unearthed. Or maybe, like copper wire collectors today, many of them were melted down after their usefulness faded. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/257 "2024-01-22T17:39:42Z")
It’s easy to forget just how little stuff survives for us to study. We have lots of stuff from ancient Rome, but still a miniscule amount relative to what they produced. And since the Romans used lots of papyrus, much of what they wrote is lost to us forever. For all we know, these things were a fad among Roman officers for some period of time: an expensive tchotchke that they displayed because they were popular. Humans from ancient empires were cognitively identical to modern humans, which means they’re just as likely to display neat-looling useless stuff as we are, and just as likely to value something useless because it’s popular. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/258 "2024-01-22T18:16:08Z")
If they had some common use, would there not be somewhere a fresco or floor mosaic or imprinted or glazed ceramic design showing one of them actually being used? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/259 "2024-01-22T18:49:45Z")
As a rulke I distrust explaining unfamiliar objects as “religious” or “cultic” items. That was one of the favored explanations of North American “Birdstones”: > **[Porphyry birdstones: Apex of ancient Native American sculpture](https://www.liveauctioneers.com/news/bid-smart/porphyry-birdstones-apex-of-ancient-native-american-sculpture/)** > > Porphyry birdstones, carved millennia ago from hard but beautiful rock, represent the apex of ancient Native American sculpture. > **[Birdstones](https://peabody.andover.edu/2018/03/30/birdstones/)** > > Contributed by Ryan Wheeler We were fortunate to receive a generous gift from Phillips Academy trustee and Peabody Advisory Committee member Peter T. Hetzler MD, FACS (Class of 1972) in December 20… It seems highly probable that these items were handles for _atlatls_ – spearthrowers. The long portion that has holes that look as if cords went though them would have been used to tie the handle to the _atlatl_, while the bulbous “eyes” were actually places for the speasr shaft to rest. > [@](#): > > Townsend, on the other hand, firmly believes that birdstones were used as handles for the atlatl. He bases this opinion on discoveries of Peruvian atlatls having bird-shaped objects fastened to the proximal (handle) ends where they functioned as grips. Townsend continues that the shape of the elongated slate birdstone and the fact that many birdstones exhibit broken perforations “that could have been caused by the tugging and snapping of the atlatl shaft” is further evidence in support of this theorized use. Perhaps one of the most compelling pieces of proof for this use lies in the confines of common sense. Townsend states, “Most finished birdstones ‘feel good’ in the hand, as if they were made to be fitted therein.” When one examines closely the illustrations set forth by Townsend in support of this theory, its plausibility becomes evident. > **[Birdstones - Use & Function - ArrowHeads.com](https://forums.arrowheads.com/forum/information-center-gc33/lithic-artifacts-technology-materials-gc71/atlatl-weights-banner-bird-boat-stones-gc77/107992-birdstones-use-function)** > > Birdstones - Use & Function Similarly, although it’s a fictional example, in Frederic Pohl’s “Heechee” story _Beyond the Blue Event Horizon_ the alien artifavts are thought to be “prayer fans”, because no one could come up with a more plausible explanation for the ubiquitous artifacts. Until later in the book where it’s revealed that they’re really books than can be read when inserted into an appropriate reader. I still favor the “glove knitting” theory. It’s been demonstrated to work, explains why these are found in colder parts of the Empire, and explain the pattern of larger and smaller holes. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/260 "2024-01-22T18:53:01Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > explain the pattern of larger and smaller holes. How? The size of the knitted thing depends on how the knobs are placed. I’m still favoring “popular tchotchke” . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459.md?page=14)