# \[Roman\] Dodecahedrons **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 27, 2023, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459 "2023-02-27T21:46:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/261 "2024-01-22T18:55:59Z")
Maybe it’s the world’s first multi-tool and does all of the above, and more! ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/262 "2024-01-22T19:13:44Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > The size of the knitted thing depends on how the knobs are placed. Correct. A bigger loom/bobbin, accommodating more pegs yields a wider knitted tube. A bigger loom with the same number of pegs (just spread out more) yields a knitted tube with a more open, net-like structure which will tend to stretch more readily. Changing the diameter of the hole in the middle of the loom, with identical numbers and spacing of pegs, makes no difference to the knitted result. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/263 "2024-01-22T19:18:34Z")
We’re back to the miniscule amount of stuff that survived. Maybe there were thousands of frescos featuring these things and none of them survived, or the surviving ones haven’t been uncovered, or there’s a fresco sitting in museum storage somewhere that nobody has looked at in forty years that would clear this whole mess right up. That last may not actually be a problem in this context, I’ve only ever heard about “dark data” in terms of natural history collections. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/264 "2024-01-22T22:11:48Z")
I don’t think that a tchotchke is consistent with the worksmanship, and hence cost, of one of these things. If they were just a fad thing to stick on a shelf, you’d expect something that you can make many copies of cheaply and easily. Or even if there were a few really fancy ones, you’d expect many, many more of the cheap imitations. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/265 "2024-01-22T22:20:15Z")
True; if it was just an ornament, there should be examples made from fired clay - it wouldn’t be all that hard to make a glazed, pierced clay form in this general shape, unless pottery was not sufficiently robust for whatever purpose this had ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/266 "2024-01-23T00:24:52Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > That last may not actually be a problem in this context, I’ve only ever heard about “dark data” in terms of natural history collections. There was a very popular Roman dice game- everyone played it. There are frescos of it. We know of a few throws- what they were called and if bad or good, but we do not know the rules. Some people claim that the Romans kept a lot of records, thus since we have little records of Jesus, he is a myth. But we dont have a single scrap of anything Pilate signed or wrote or had written. In fact, we only know Pilate really existed from a coin and a recently found inscription on a stone- > **[Pilate stone](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate_stone)** > > The Pilate stone is a damaged block (82 cm x 65 cm) of carved limestone with a partially intact inscription attributed to, and mentioning, Pontius Pilate, a prefect of the Roman province of Judea from AD 26 to 36. It was discovered at the archaeological site of Caesarea Maritima in 1961. The artifact is particularly significant because it is an archaeological find of an authentic 1st-century Roman inscription mentioning the name "\[Pont\]ius Pilatus". It is contemporary to Pilate's lifetime, and a... _The artifact is particularly significant because it is an archaeological find of an authentic 1st-century Roman inscription mentioning the name “[Pont]ius Pilatus”. It is contemporary to Pilate’s lifetime, and accords with what is known of his reported career.[[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate_stone#cite_note-2)[[3]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pilate_stone#cite_note-ChiltonE465-3) In effect, the inscription constitutes the earliest surviving, and only contemporary, record of Pilate, who is otherwise known from the [New Testament](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate#Trial_and_execution_of_Jesus) and [apocryphal texts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate#New_Testament_Apocrypha), the Jewish historian [Josephus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus) and writer [Philo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philo), and brief references by Roman historians such as [Tacitus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus)._ > [@Mangetout](#): > > True; if it was just an ornament, there should be examples made from fired clay - it wouldn’t be all that hard to make a glazed, pierced clay form in this general shape, unless pottery was not sufficiently robust for whatever purpose this had Or silver, gold or iron. But always bronze or another copper alloy. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/267 "2024-01-23T00:39:27Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Or silver, gold or iron. But always bronze or another copper alloy. Iron would not have been impossible, but probably a whole lot more work. They did not have cast iron in the Roman Empire days, so to make one they’d have had to make twelve flat sides and then weld them together. Not impossible, but tricky. The final product would likely have come out a whole lot less regular than the cast bronze ones. Plus iron rusts easily, so few would have survived to this day. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/268 "2024-01-23T00:47:57Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > For all we know, these things were a fad among Roman officers for some period of time: an expensive tchotchke that they displayed because they were popular. I’ve got no problem with these kinds of conjectures but the different size holes render this problematic to me. They went through all of the trouble to make the sides equal the stuck different sized holes on the things. yet, confoundingly, the dodecks themselves are different sizes. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/269 "2024-01-23T00:52:28Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > Plus iron rusts easily, so few would have survived to this day. Okay, but if some sort of religious item, why no silver or gold\> Or even electrum, the Romans used a lot of that. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/270 "2024-01-23T00:54:15Z")
I still think they are Roman d12s. Sometime a few years from now they’ll discover a bunch of Latin character sheets and a gold d20. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/271 "2024-01-23T01:13:22Z")
Obligatory. [![](https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/voynich_manuscript.png) ](https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/voynich_manuscript.png) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/272 "2024-01-23T07:10:23Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I don’t think that a tchotchke is consistent with the worksmanship The level of workmanship on these is pedestrian and positively _ascetic_ by Roman bronze working standards (I’ve linked to what _fancy_ Roman bronze looks like already. And Celtic stuff can be even fancier). These are also not marvels of theretofore unknown geometry and engineering, or complicated mechanisms like the Antithythera. They _are_ at the tchotchke end of the workmanship scale, not the fancy side. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/273 "2024-01-23T09:18:49Z")
Some of the examples just seem a little bit too utilitarian to be ornaments of any kind, religious or just decorative. Some of them are cast as one piece but have casting failures repaired. Some of them are constructed from flat plates soldered together, but the seams are not finished smooth The fact that these (the examples we have) are all made from bronzes or brasses suggests that’s what they _needed to be made from_, in order to stand up to some wear or usage or other. Of course that doesn’t rule out the possibility of them being some ritual object that was related to bronze workers. We’ve discussed the curious spread of their distribution in terms of climate, but there is another angle to that - it also somewhat corresponds with expansion of the Roman empire into Northern Europe - which could suggest these things had some purpose related to military activity. A taper gauge for making spear and arrow shafts for example. So you give this object to the person cutting and shaping the wooden shafts. You give the counterpart (basically just a spike or cone) to the blacksmith, to make the sockets that will fit the shafts. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/274 "2024-01-23T10:49:57Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > although there are numerous examples of tapered bottles, the majority of Roman glass vials appear to have flat bottoms and could stand up on their own. Phials with tapered bottoms would have needed some kind of stand. Like this one. [![](https://content.easyliveauction.com/auctions/images_lots/E8A2E9CA9255F0231EE619CE0F1B266A_daw01/1100189357_PREVIEW.JPG) ](https://content.easyliveauction.com/auctions/images_lots/E8A2E9CA9255F0231EE619CE0F1B266A_daw01/1100189357_PREVIEW.JPG) Maybe these were just fancy stands to go on your dressing table to hold perfumes or oils. ---
**Author:** ![eburacum45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eburacum45/32/8690_2.png) [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/275 "2024-01-23T10:52:51Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > I still think they are Roman d12s. This solid Roman dodecahedron almost certainly was a dice of some sort. [![](https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-S04e0tvFF_0/UMhLkWpiL3I/AAAAAAAACJw/S_fhXL5F-Bk/s200/boutique-de.jpg) ](https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-S04e0tvFF_0/UMhLkWpiL3I/AAAAAAAACJw/S_fhXL5F-Bk/s200/boutique-de.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/276 "2024-01-23T11:04:21Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > The fact that these (the examples we have) are all made from bronzes or brasses suggests that’s what they _needed to be made from_, in order to stand up to some wear or usage or other. Or because copper alloys were considered aesthetically pleasing… > [@Mangetout](#): > > which could suggest these things had some purpose related to military activity The Romans _at the exact same time period_ was also expanding in the East - the Balkans, Persia, Judea. Sometimes the exact same legions campaigned in both arenas. Why didn’t the same utilitarian military purpose occur there? > [@eburacum45](#): > > Maybe these were just fancy stands to go on your dressing table to hold perfumes or oils. Same objection - tapered phials and amphoriskoi are found throughout the Empire. So why would this not occur everywhere? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/277 "2024-01-23T11:04:53Z")
> [@eburacum45](#): > > Maybe these were just fancy stands to go on your dressing table to hold perfumes or oils. Yeah, the variety of hole sizes made me think maybe they would be a sort of universal retort for a variety of such bottles, but it just seems like anyone who needed that (a physician or cosmeticist perhaps) would just source ointments and materials in bottles that didn’t need a fancy stand. And again, why bronze? If it was a retort for heating things in their bottles, perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/278 "2024-01-23T11:09:49Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > If it was a retort for heating things in their bottles, perhaps. How would that work for the soldered examples? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/279 "2024-01-23T12:22:38Z")
> [@eburacum45](#): > > This solid Roman dodecahedron almost certainly was a dice of some sort. I’d say probably, but I’ve seen modern desk objects that are dodecahedrons with a month on each side, just for keeping track of which month it is. One with zodiac signs could have been used in the same way. In any event, the labels at least strongly suggest uses, and explain why a dodecahedron was used. Doesn’t help much with the “standard” Roman dodecahedra. > [@Mangetout](#): > > The fact that these (the examples we have) are all made from bronzes or brasses suggests that’s what they _needed to be made from_, in order to stand up to some wear or usage or other. So you don’t buy that the golden Asian ones are related? ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/280 "2024-01-23T16:50:11Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > So you don’t buy that the golden Asian ones are related? I’d be really surprised if the Asian ones were related. Just a coincidence they are in the same shape. But it’s not like the dodecahedron is a shape known only to an obscure cult or something. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459.md?page=15)