# \[Roman\] Dodecahedrons **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 27, 2023, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459 "2023-02-27T21:46:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![DETXL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/detxl/32/19366_2.png) [@DETXL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DETXL)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/321 "2024-01-24T12:22:09Z")
> [@Al128](#): > > However, the consistancy of 12 faces does trigger a month/zodiak rationale (There is at least one example of an icosohedron, although I’ve no idea if it’s considered canonical or not) > [@Mangetout](#): > > **Why is there no consistency of overall size across all examples?** > Because not all students passed the test, or perhaps the specification for size was no more than ‘can be carried in one hand’. > [@MrDibble](#): > > And (this part is just my opinion) this is not masterpiece-level work. Roman bronzes could be much, _much_ more complex than this. Things that would _really_ test an apprentice. I’m curious (like you I have an anthropology degree, but we never cared about Europe and I have not followed current research on this so I may just not have been able to turn it up): is there, somewhere, a survey of the measurements of the existing dodecahedra? I know they come in different sizes, but is there a comprehensive list of those sizes and the hole measurements to see if there is (for example), at least a constant ratio between faces and holes, or between opposing holes? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/322 "2024-01-24T12:28:14Z")
I still think the use of the dodecahedra as forms for knitting/crocheting gloves (and possibly) other items is the likeliest explanation – it explains the “knobs” at the vertices and would be consistent with their presence in cold climates. But I’ll throw something else out there. This may simply be coincidence, but when I looked at the distribution of dodecahedra on a map it reminded me of something else – the distribution of underground temples to Mithras (called _mithreaea_, plural of _mithraeum_ ): Distribution of dodecahedra > [@](#): > > [map distribution of Roman Dodecahedrons - Google Search](https://www.google.com/search?q=map+distribution+of+Roman+Dodecahedrons&sca_esv=601059271&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS1050US1050&ei=I_6wZaHAGJuGptQPg6SnyAs&ved=0ahUKEwjh3d6O__WDAxUbg4kEHQPSCbkQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=map+distribution+of+Roman+Dodecahedrons&gs_lp=Egxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAiJ21hcCBkaXN0cmlidXRpb24gb2YgUm9tYW4gRG9kZWNhaGVkcm9uczIIECEYoAEYwwRImwpQAFjLB3AAeACQAQCYAVagAboCqgEBNLgBA8gBAPgBAcICChAhGAoYoAEYwwTiAwQYACBB&sclient=gws-wiz-serp#vhid=15X2kKH4oSwg0M&vssid=l) Distribution of mithreaea: > [@](#): > > [Reddit - Dive into anything](https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/g9j4a3/distribution_of_the_mithraeum_the_ritual_dining/) I acknowledge that the distribution of Mithraea is broader, and extends farther to the south and west (and even into Africa), but both maps have concentrations near the border with Germania, and are prominent in modern-day France and Britain. The dodecahedra date from the 2nd to 4th centuries CE, which overlaps with the spread of Mithraism through the Roman empire in the 1st through fourth centuries CE. Exactly what Mithraism believed and practiced is still heavily discussed – they didn’t call it a “Mystery Religion” for nothingg. Very little in the way of writing has come down to us. I personally thin that David Ulansey was onto something when he wrote _The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries_, which saw in it a new Roman religion that used images from earlier eastern Mithraism in a new context. But, in any case, there’s no denying that Roman Mithraism had heavy astronomical symbolism, and in particlar zodiacal images. So it wouldn’t be hard to see a twelve0-sided object as ghaving particular significance to them. I’ll add that Mithraea tended to be found near military encampments – Mithraismn was evidently a “soldier’s religion”, and the army helped spread it through the Empire. So the dodecahedra might v ery well be associated with the army, as well, since they’re found in the same places. Even if they might not be associated with Mithraism. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/323 "2024-01-24T12:54:58Z")
> [@DETXL](#): > > like you I have an anthropology degree Mine’s archaeology, not anthropology. > [@DETXL](#): > > is there, somewhere, a survey of the measurements of the existing dodecahedra? I’ve already linked upthread to one [paper](https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1206/1206.0946.pdf) (one of the rangefinder theory ones) that had a summary of _some_ sizes. > [@CalMeacham](#): > > it explains the “knobs” at the vertices Do they need a practical explanation? I mean, why are they on the gold beads from further East? > [@CalMeacham](#): > > I acknowledge that the distribution of Mithraea is broader, and extends farther to the south and west Whereas, check out the distribution of [Jupiter Columns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_Column) - Germania, Gaul and Britain, exclusively. ---
**Author:** ![vbob](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vbob/32/4439_2.png) [@vbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vbob)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/324 "2024-01-24T13:03:27Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > tough, beat up men sitting around the campfire at night knitting new clothing Warriors at the end of a day’s march may want to calm their minds, occupy their hands, and will ALWAYS need new warm socks. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/325 "2024-01-24T13:18:18Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Whereas, check out the distribution of [Jupiter Columns](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_Column) - Germania, Gaul and Britain, exclusively. Your link doesn’t give a map of the distribution. I note that it’s not just the distribution (which shows concenbtrations in the same places), but also the coincidence of dates and the zodiac imagery/twelve sides coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/326 "2024-01-24T13:29:22Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Your link doesn’t give a map of the distribution. No, it describes it in the text. If you want a map, you’ll need to read German and have academic journal access. > [@CalMeacham](#): > > (which shows concenbtrations in the same places) As you yourself noted, there are no dodecahedra in Dacia, Italy, Africa or Spain etc. So this is just a distribution of where the Roman Army was, whereas the dodecahedron distribution is way more restricted. Also, were any of the D12s found with Mithraic cult items? > [@CalMeacham](#): > > also the coincidence of dates and the zodiac imagery/twelve sides coincidence. The Romans had a 12-month year and 12 constellations. This is not unique to Mithraism. And the dates are similar - just the timing for the occupation of, and Romanization of, the Gallo-German frontier. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/327 "2024-01-24T14:38:01Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Also, were any of the D12s found with Mithraic cult items? Damned if I know – I’m pointing out the juxtapositions. > [@](#): > > As you yourself noted, there are no dodecahedra in Dacia, Italy, Africa or Spain etc. So this is just a distribution of where the Roman Army was, whereas the dodecahedron distribution is way more restricted. Right. But that might mean they haven’t found them there yet, or that some other factor contributed. > [@](#): > > The Romans had a 12-month year and 12 constellations. This is not unique to Mithraism. And the dates are similar - just the timing for the occupation of, and Romanization of, the Gallo-German frontier. Of course. But the fact that Mithraism was so concerned with the zodiac and the dodecahedrons have twelve sides is yet another interesting coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/328 "2024-01-24T15:17:44Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > True; if it was just an ornament, there should be examples made from fired clay - it wouldn’t be all that hard to make a glazed, pierced clay form in this general shape, unless pottery was not sufficiently robust for whatever purpose this had you’ve convinced me. That probably also rules out “religious artifact”. > [@MrDibble](#): > > The level of workmanship on these is pedestrian and positively _ascetic_ by Roman bronze working standards (I’ve linked to what _fancy_ Roman bronze looks like already. And Celtic stuff can be even fancier). These are also not marvels of theretofore unknown geometry and engineering, or complicated mechanisms like the Antithythera. They _are_ at the tchotchke end of the workmanship scale, not the fancy side. Hmm. I take it back. What would one of these cost in something that makes sense today. (How many days salary of a soldier, say.) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/329 "2024-01-24T15:25:17Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > But that might mean they haven’t found them there yet, That would be very unusual - as I’ve pointed out before, preservation conditions were _better_ in those other parts of the Empire. Mithraism was certainly big in the rest of the Empire. > [@CalMeacham](#): > > that some other factor contributed That’s just some God of the Gaps-level arguing from ignorance. If you don’t have a suggestion for such a factor, it’s a red herring. > [@CalMeacham](#): > > . But the fact that Mithraism was so concerned with the zodiac The Romans went through various periods when astrology was all the rage. This isn’t unique to Mithraism. And what reason do you have to associate the twelve sides here with the zodiac? There are no markings to indicate any links to the signs… Why just twelve unmarked sides? We can see other Roam dodecahedrons that are so marked. And why the 12, but nothing for the as-important-to-Mithraism number seven? Where’s the bull symbolism? Or Sol & Lunar symbology? Other than the not-even-a-correlation of distribution and the number 12, what links these artefacts to Mithraism? Have they ever been found in a cult site? Been mentioned in texts describing the cult? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/330 "2024-01-24T15:40:58Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > What would one of these cost in something that makes sense today. (How many days salary of a soldier, say.) It’s really, _really_ hard to put prices on things from the past, but - comparing it with the ubiquity of other cast bronze articles I’ve already covered, like lamps and _fibula_, but allowing for the bespoke nature of these - I’d guess something like this would cost more than a few day’s pay , less than a month’s (after expenses, a soldier saw around 12 _denarii_ a month). Around 8-10 _denarii_, I’d guess. Around the same or slightly more than the high end of a good basic tunic (5-7 _d_.) ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/331 "2024-01-24T15:52:52Z")
I have paid that much for tchotchkes. So i don’t think that hypothesis has been ruled out. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/332 "2024-01-24T15:53:18Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > That’s just some God of the Gaps-level arguing from ignorance. If you don’t have a suggestion for such a factor, it’s a red herring. The D12 is used by Barbarians, both for hit die and damage with a greataxe. Barbarians come from Germania, Gaul, and the British Isles. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/333 "2024-01-24T15:57:19Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Barbarians come from Germania, Gaul, and the British Isles. [Also](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian#Etymology) Persia, Phoenicia, Carthage, the Pontic Steppe, Anatolia, Syria… the Romans were equal-opportunity bigots. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/334 "2024-01-24T16:16:01Z")
The Romans were mad for both Fortunetelling AND Gambling. Could be either, or both. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/335 "2024-01-24T16:17:14Z")
And from Udergoth. {SINGS}Buh-Barbarians! Buh-Buh-Barbarians!{/SINGS} ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/336 "2024-01-24T16:27:52Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > [Also](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian#Etymology) Persia, Phoenicia, Carthage, the Pontic Steppe, Anatolia, Syria… the Romans were equal-opportunity bigots The Greeks and Romans didn’t really know about Rangers or Druids, they pretty much called anyone who wasn’t a Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, or Wizard a “Barbarian”. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/337 "2024-01-24T16:45:06Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > That’s going to be the trending question to St. Peter for a good bit if we don’t figure it out. > > “Welcome to Heaven. Have you got any questions?” > > “Yeah. **Why The Fuck** does it have _knobs_ on??!??” And, will a plane on a treadmill take off? ---
**Author:** ![Retzbu\_Tox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/retzbu_tox/32/11829_2.png) [@Retzbu\_Tox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Retzbu_Tox)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/338 "2024-01-24T16:57:34Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Oh, I meant to ask about this one before, too: Is there any direct evidence that those items were for use by a sorceress (like, them being found in a shop with a sign that said “JVLIA’S DISCOVNT SORCERY”, or whatever)? Because when I look at that, I see a jewelry-maker’s kit. You can find jewelry that looks just like that at any modern craft show. Articles about the “Pompeiian Sorceress Kit” also often call it a jewelry box, so it sounds like those are the two main theories for that collection of items. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/339 "2024-01-24T22:36:49Z")
Y’know, the more I think about it, we really should see some of these in ceramic, or at least recognizable fragments. Ceramic is cheaper and easier to make than bronze, and in one key regard, it’s more durable, too: If you have something ceramic that you don’t want any more, then you just toss it in your trash pit, where it can be found by later archaeologists, but if you have something bronze that you don’t need any more, you can melt it down to recast it into something that you do need (or more likely, sell it to the local metalworker for the same purpose), in which case it would leave no trace. If we’ve found hundreds of the bronze ones but zero ceramic ones, then it must be something that can’t be made out of ceramic. ---
**Author:** ![Dahu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dahu/32/3416_2.png) [@Dahu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dahu)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2024, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/340 "2024-01-24T23:04:43Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Hmm. I take it back. > > What would one of these cost in something that makes sense today. (How many days salary of a soldier, say.) I’m wondering what one of these would be worth today. I found an auction sale with a value of £33,000 (about $42,000) but that didn’t have provenance. Anyone hazard a guess for an authenticated Roman dodecahedron in good condition? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459.md?page=18)