# \[Roman\] Dodecahedrons **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 27, 2023, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459 "2023-02-27T21:46:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/401 "2024-01-27T16:05:58Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I agree that “some of them actually functional, and others merely symbolic of the functional thing” sounds promising, as a way of explaining some of the differences. I agree too, there are many examples of gambling or spiritual objects that appear in a usable size and then also in small versions, many times used as jewelry. > **[Dice Pendant Necklace for Men, Silver Poker Dice Necklace, Lucky Dice Necklace...](https://www.etsy.com/listing/1060430162/dice-pendant-necklace-for-men-silver)** > > This Pendant Necklaces item by SnowstarPendants has 73 favorites from Etsy shoppers. Ships from United Kingdom. Listed on Dec 18, 2023 > **[9ct Gold Dream Catcher Pendant | Prouds](https://www.prouds.com.au/9ct-gold-dream-catcher-pendant-2529012)** > > Shop 9ct Gold Dream Catcher Pendant at Prouds | Discover our range of Pendants And one thing I noticed is that the small versions of the dodecahedrons are also found in pendents or other jewelry. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/402 "2024-01-27T16:08:27Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > a modern, multi-purpose tool Modern? Hell, how about [a Roman one](https://www.fitzmuseum.cam.ac.uk/learn-with-us/look-think-do/roman-swiss-army-knife) that’s obviously multi-purpose… [![](https://fitz-cms-images.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/gr_1_1991-1-.jpg) ](https://fitz-cms-images.s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/gr_1_1991-1-.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/403 "2024-01-27T16:17:12Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Some of the credit-card sized multi-tools could be confusing at first glace. And also especially for someone who doesn’t know about hex-head nuts and bolts. It may be that there’s some other tool or item that these things are meant to be used with, but those were typically made of less durable materials. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/404 "2024-01-27T16:26:29Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > You need to either explain why the instrument is a dodecahedron, or explain why the die has holes. My pet theory is that it was a die with the added use in augury. I think the item could be repourposed like a modern 64 square board that can be used either with checker or chess board pieces. Yes, a bit more complex, but then (Obelix from Asterix an Obelix) “Romans were crazy!”. Now I think that the knobs were used to help keep the named pieces that could include the zodiac, names, or fortunes in place. I think that the pieces were kept in place using string and the holes kept the pieces in place too with protruding bits under the pieces. Pieces that were not as lasting as the metal “board”. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/405 "2024-01-27T17:24:39Z")
If it were a die, wouldn’t the faces be clearly distinguished from each other? Surely they didn’t grab a micrometer after each throw to determine which of the similarly-sized holes was facing up. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/406 "2024-01-27T17:27:40Z")
Holy!!! Yes, i immediately recognize that as a multi purpose tool. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/407 "2024-01-27T17:41:17Z")
Sometimes it’s both a floor wax and a dessert topping. I think the design may have been used for multiple purposes but I’m not leaning towards it being a tool or utility item. Ritual, gaming, even a fad like a pet rock or a status symbol. And maybe the purpose changed over time. Maybe if you had one sitting on a shelf and someone saw it they ask “Are you a dodecahedron?” and club members would answer “You bet your sweet ass I am”. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/408 "2024-01-27T17:47:06Z")
If it were a die, I don’t think there would be examples that are the size of a grapefruit. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/409 "2024-01-27T17:55:39Z")
If it were a die, there wouldn’t be knobs at the corners making it near-impossible to actually roll. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/410 "2024-01-27T18:00:34Z")
> [@markn\_1](#): > > If it were a die, wouldn’t the faces be clearly distinguished from each other? Surely they didn’t grab a micrometer after each throw to determine which of the similarly-sized holes was facing up. Again, Romans were crazy. 🙂 But seriously, the other articles I cited about Roman dice, point at the Romans not caring much about how distinguished the faces in their gambling or augur implements were. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/411 "2024-01-27T18:04:46Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > If it were a die, I don’t think there would be examples that are the size of a grapefruit. Again, there are many examples of dice or other items for games and augurs that come in miniature size. > **[Amazon.com: GRAPHICS & MORE Chess Board Pieces Pattern Military Dog Tag...](https://www.amazon.com/GRAPHICS-MORE-Pattern-Military-Necklace/dp/B0817FSLPG)** > > Amazon.com: GRAPHICS & MORE Chess Board Pieces Pattern Military Dog Tag Pendant Necklace with Chain : Pet Supplies And conversely: > **[MegaChess 12 Inch Plastic Giant Chess Set With Plastic Board](https://www.megachess.com/products/megachess-12-inch-plastic-giant-chess-set-with-plastic-board)** > > Buy a 12 inch plastic chess set with a plastic board online at MegaChess. Our 12 inch plastic giant chess set with a plastic board is the perfect size, with pieces ranging from an 8-inch pawn with a 4-inch diameter to a 12-inch king with a 4.5-inch... ---
**Author:** ![Retzbu\_Tox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/retzbu_tox/32/11829_2.png) [@Retzbu\_Tox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Retzbu_Tox)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/412 "2024-01-27T18:05:43Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > If it were a die, I don’t think there would be examples that are the size of a grapefruit. Why do boneheads like to show up at my weekly game night with these ridiculous 45mm solid metal table-denting miniature-smashing d20s? You can get even bigger plastic or resin ones. [![](https://darkelfdice.com/cdn/shop/products/The_Boulder_Bronze_Dragon_Scale_720x.jpg?v=1540954758) ](https://darkelfdice.com/cdn/shop/products/The_Boulder_Bronze_Dragon_Scale_720x.jpg?v=1540954758) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/413 "2024-01-27T18:07:05Z")
At least you can _roll_ that. Putting knobs on the corners of a die is like putting square wheels on a chariot. The Romans had dice; they look like dice. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/414 "2024-01-27T18:09:26Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > If it were a die, there wouldn’t be knobs at the corners making it near-impossible to actually roll. The wood pieces [most likely material] would go in the faces right between the knobs, with string or other holders also using those knobs. Of course, it is just a pet theory, but I would think the Romans had a clever way to keep those pieces in place temporarily and allowing other soldiers or people to “bring their own” pieces to be be used. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/415 "2024-01-27T18:11:16Z")
What would be the point of making all the holes in the faces in different sizes, and decorating the faces with inscribed lines, if the intention was to cover that up with wooden plates? ---
**Author:** ![Retzbu\_Tox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/retzbu_tox/32/11829_2.png) [@Retzbu\_Tox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Retzbu_Tox)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/416 "2024-01-27T18:14:57Z")
A toy or game with shapes that go in holes in the sides of a dodecahedron seems overly complic… I take that back. [![](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61xK01UQjSL._AC_SL1500_.jpg) ](https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61xK01UQjSL._AC_SL1500_.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/417 "2024-01-27T18:19:24Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > What would be the point of making all the holes in the faces in different sizes, and decorating the faces with inscribed lines, if the intention was to cover that up with wooden plates? IIUC the size changes are due to the making of the dodecahedrons. Some plates would fit better, others do not. As the articles cited mention, Romans did not care much about fair dice or for other augur or gambling items, they cared more about convenience by carving the six peeps on the wider side of a blank die. And another thought just came to me: Romans that did not care about odds would had liked to toss a thing like that and not roll much, they needed their augurs-fortunes-winnings sooner rather than later. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/418 "2024-01-27T18:19:46Z")
The problem with Roman Dodecahedrons being shape sorters is the same as this one: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/cUbIkNUFs-4/maxresdefault.jpg "The Original Square Hole Girl Video + The Redemption") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUbIkNUFs-4) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/419 "2024-01-27T18:23:07Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > IIUC the size changes are due to the making of the dodecahedrons. I feel like if there is one thing we can say with reasonable certainty, it is that the differing hole sizes are a deliberate choice, not an accident of manufacture. [![](https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1dokAGaubgo/TlpkAbJuUFI/AAAAAAAADb0/EOnIG6DfC8g/s320/595px-Schwarzenacker_Pentagondodekaeder1.jpg) ](https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-1dokAGaubgo/TlpkAbJuUFI/AAAAAAAADb0/EOnIG6DfC8g/s320/595px-Schwarzenacker_Pentagondodekaeder1.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2024, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/420 "2024-01-27T18:33:43Z")
IIRC there was a report of the different sizes as being the result of saving material first and them carving the other ones to size. But if it was on purpose, one possibility is that the holders that I’m picturing could had been the pieces having hooks or tied _to each opposite side_, with the large holes used to make it easier to access the knots after the game or augur was over. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459.md?page=22)