# \[Roman\] Dodecahedrons **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 27, 2023, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459 "2023-02-27T21:46:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/501 "2024-02-01T11:27:24Z")
Even so, getting underneath it to try to poke a stick through one of the holes and catch it seems like a recipe for kinetic dentistry. It’s an entertaining thought; maybe the Romans would have liked watching that! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2024, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/502 "2024-02-01T23:25:46Z")
> [@Francis\_Vaughan](#): > > It that it it appears the majority of holes were cut after casting that likely leads to more inconsistency. Probably cut with scribing tool set up as a compass. Same tool used for engraving the surrounding pattern on some dodecahedra. The scribe diameter was probably just set by hand for each operation. This handwork is going to be the dominant component of manufacture. > > However, adding the ornamentation to the wax pattern would have been my guess, but the descriptions claim that it was added after. On at least some of the ones with concentric circles around the holes, it looks like the circles might have been templates for the later-to-be-drilled holes. But of course, that too isn’t consistent, and some with concentric circles just seem to be outlining the hole. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2024, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/503 "2024-02-03T00:20:44Z")
Another article. And another dodecahedron. [https://www.vice.com/en/article/dy3jpx/ancient-roman-dodecahedron-discovered-in-norton-disney](https://www.vice.com/en/article/dy3jpx/ancient-roman-dodecahedron-discovered-in-norton-disney) ---
**Author:** ![Retzbu\_Tox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/retzbu_tox/32/11829_2.png) [@Retzbu\_Tox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Retzbu_Tox)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2024, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/504 "2024-02-03T01:54:08Z")
Scroll up the thread to January 19. That’s when we started discussing this particular new dodecahedron and woke the thread from an 8-month coma. This new one is nice - It’s in good condition and bigger than many others. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2024, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/505 "2024-02-03T08:26:58Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > On at least some of the ones with concentric circles around the holes, it looks like the circles might have been templates for the later-to-be-drilled holes. But of course, that too isn’t consistent, and some with concentric circles just seem to be outlining the hole. The precision of concentricity suggests the holes and inscribed rings were made on the same centre, at the same time. That is, inscribing a bunch of concentric rings on the surface with compasses or something similar, then scoring the innermost inscribed circle deep enough to cut right through; either in the wax before casting or in the bronze after, but from a common centre either way. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2024, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/506 "2024-02-06T23:47:21Z")
From the article: “On the second-to-last day of our dig, I’m busy making the tea, **as you do**.” 😁 ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2024, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/507 "2024-02-25T02:55:37Z")
The front page of Wikipedia today has an entry for Celtic / Anglo-Saxon hanging bowls: > **[Benty Grange hanging bowl](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benty_Grange_hanging_bowl)** > > The Benty Grange hanging bowl is a fragmentary Anglo-Saxon artefact from the seventh century AD. All that remains are parts of two escutcheons: bronze frames that are usually circular and elaborately decorated, and that sit along the outside of the rim or at the interior base of a hanging bowl. A third disintegrated soon after excavation, and no longer survives. The escutcheons were found in 1848 by the antiquary Thomas Bateman, while excavating a tumulus at the Benty Grange farm in western... The article explains that the archaeologists don’t know the purpose of the hanging bowls: > [@](#): > > The purpose of hanging bowls, and their places of manufacture, is unknown.[[2]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benty_Grange_hanging_bowl#cite_note-FOOTNOTEBruce-MitfordRaven20053-3) They appear to have been manufactured by Celtic makers in Britain in the post-[Roman period](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Britain); examples were also used by [Anglo-Saxons](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxons) (who likely received bowls via trade) and, later, by [Vikings]. > > Many suggestions have been made as to the original use of hanging bowls, including as lamps or lamp reflectors,[[8]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benty_Grange_hanging_bowl#cite_note-FOOTNOTEHenry1936211%E2%80%93213-9) [votive](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Votive_offering) vessels hung in churches,[[9]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benty_Grange_hanging_bowl#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMcRoberts1963304%E2%80%93305-10) vessels for liturgical use such as washing hands or communion vessels,[[10]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benty_Grange_hanging_bowl#cite_note-FOOTNOTELiest%C3%B8l1953-11)[[11]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benty_Grange_hanging_bowl#cite_note-FOOTNOTEBruce-Mitford198731-12)sanctuary lamps, wayside drinking vessels of the sort [Edwin of Northumbria](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_of_Northumbria) is said to have provided for travellers,[[12]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benty_Grange_hanging_bowl#cite_note-FOOTNOTEColgraveMynors1969193-13) finger bowls,[[13]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benty_Grange_hanging_bowl#cite_note-FOOTNOTESmallThomasWilson1973110%E2%80%93111-14) [scale](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weighing_scale) pans for weighing wool,[[14]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benty_Grange_hanging_bowl#cite_note-FOOTNOTEMitchell192371_n.31-15) magnetic compasses, food containers, [holy water stoups](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_water_font), wash basins, and ceremonial vessels used in [mead halls](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mead_hall).[[15]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benty_Grange_hanging_bowl#cite_note-FOOTNOTEBruce-MitfordRaven200530-16)[[16]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benty_Grange_hanging_bowl#cite_note-FOOTNOTEFowler1968287%E2%80%93288-17)When they were acquired by Anglo-Saxons and Vikings, the bowls likely took on even more uses.[[15]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benty_Grange_hanging_bowl#cite_note-FOOTNOTEBruce-MitfordRaven200530-16) Whatever their original functional purpose, by the seventh century hanging bowls appear to have been increasingly associated with wealth and the status of their owners;[[17]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benty_Grange_hanging_bowl#cite_note-FOOTNOTEBrenan1991135-18) during the seventh and early eighths centuries hanging bowls were a common feature in richly furnished Anglo-Saxon graves.[[18]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benty_Grange_hanging_bowl#cite_note-FOOTNOTEGeake1999-19) By this point, the role of hanging bowls as a [status symbol](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_symbol)may have been more important than any functional purpose.[[17]](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benty_Grange_hanging_bowl#cite_note-FOOTNOTEBrenan1991135-18)[Vikings - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikings)) I think it’s obvious: the hanging bowls were used to store Romans dodecahedrons. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2024, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/508 "2024-02-25T15:26:50Z")
I use mine to store onions and eggs. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2024, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/509 "2024-03-13T00:18:05Z")
While looking for a meme to fit another thread, I stumbled on this: [![](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d1ec74ddd001e2691849debb7cfa96c9) ](https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d1ec74ddd001e2691849debb7cfa96c9) ---
**Author:** ![Retzbu\_Tox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/retzbu_tox/32/11829_2.png) [@Retzbu\_Tox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Retzbu_Tox)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2024, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/510 "2024-03-13T18:15:33Z")
It’ll be just our luck if Roman dodecahedrons are actually thoroughly explained in the Voynich Manuscript or in some Linear A tablet. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2024, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/511 "2024-03-13T19:02:41Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > I still think the use of the dodecahedra as forms for knitting/crocheting gloves (and possibly) other items is the likeliest explanation – it explains the “knobs” at the vertices and would be consistent with their presence in cold climates. > > But I’ll throw something else out there. This may simply be coincidence, but when I looked at the distribution of dodecahedra on a map it reminded me of something else – the distribution of underground temples to Mithras (called _mithreaea_, plural of _mithraeum_ ): The 2 main facts we have to work with are space (the map) and time (0-500 CE). Also, the objects are neither common nor rare and so far they don’t seem to be consistently found with a single common category of objects. If the dodecahedron has a utilitarian use then it is a technology. Technologies are invented, but they are also supplanted. So what replaced the dodecahedron around 500 CE? If it’s a technology, it was a reasonably successful one, but it also was one that was completely replaced. This isn’t a slam dunk argument, because technological fads can exist. I keep thinking about the hypothesis that it was a test for craftsmen. But I think a lack of antecedents or precedents would support the religious or religious cult explanation. Archeologists claiming it was a technology need to explain what came before and after it. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2024, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/512 "2024-03-13T19:40:07Z")
So: Platonic solid has mystical significance for some cult. Dodecahedron is a custom made platform to mount jewels of various sizes, the jewels being more valuable than the platform. (I know, sometimes they lack holes.) Maybe they are showcased on sticks: everyone likes scepters. Except competing religious groups. They are replaced by the cross. The valuable jewels are stripped off and repurposed. The remaining dodecahedron is too beautiful to throw away, and not threatening enough to be ordered destroyed. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2024, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/513 "2024-03-13T19:47:29Z")
But made of reusable metal. So it’s a mystery how they would have avoided being smelted for their bronze. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2024, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/514 "2024-03-13T20:07:04Z")
Maybe a lot of them were. The dodecahedron’s esthetic value may have been considered greater than the intrinsic value of the base metal. A lot of bronze objects have survived from those times, though many of them probably were melted down and reused. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2024, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/515 "2024-03-13T21:26:43Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Dodecahedron is a custom made platform to mount jewels of various sizes, the jewels being more valuable than the platform. Those would be some awfully big jewels. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2024, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/516 "2024-03-13T21:42:40Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Those would be some awfully big jewels. They aren’t diamonds, that’s for sure. I was thinking of something made of glass. I’m not wholly convinced my hypothesis is aesthetically plausible. Would encrusted dodecahedrons be sufficiently attractive? Argument against: googling, images of sceptres have a different feel to them. They aren’t many-sided. Argument for: Maybe the knobs help hold the pretty-objects in place? ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2024, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/517 "2024-04-29T09:34:08Z")
Another one has been found in Lincolnshire, England: [![](https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/34F1/production/_133235531_mediaitem133235530.jpg.webp) ](https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/34F1/production/_133235531_mediaitem133235530.jpg.webp) It’s a big one too: “one of the largest ever found, measuring about 3in (8cm) tall and weighing half a pound (245g)” ---
**Author:** ![pjd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pjd/32/3009_2.png) [@pjd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pjd)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2024, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/518 "2024-04-29T09:57:52Z")
It’s been noted … > [@\[Roman\] Dodecahedrons](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/199): > > A “new” dodecahedron was found in Britain in June of 2023, which is intact and a bit larger than most of the others that have been found. [[image] ](https://i0.wp.com/nortondisneyhag.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/IMG_5885-scaled.jpeg?resize=1536%2C1152&ssl=1) ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2024, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/519 "2024-04-29T13:17:33Z")
New article on the Norton Disney Dodecahedron: > **[Roman object that baffled experts to go on show at Lincoln Museum](https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-68908558)** > > The 12-sided object, found in Norton Disney, is being shown as part of the Lincoln Festival of History. ---
**Author:** ![Fish\_Cheer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fish_cheer/32/17179_2.png) [@Fish\_Cheer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish_Cheer)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2024, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/520 "2024-04-30T16:50:50Z")
Another one in the [Washington Post](https://wapo.st/3QpdxRG) (gift link). > [@](#): > > “I wonder in 2,000 years what an archaeologist will think when she discovers some of the tools or the junk we throw away without the instruction manual.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459.md?page=27)