# \[Roman\] Dodecahedrons **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 27, 2023, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459 "2023-02-27T21:46:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2024, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/581 "2024-06-27T10:38:33Z")
> [@markn\_1](#): > > do they all actually have 12 distinct sizes in all existing samples? No. There is a wide variety, but there is a common core of objects that generally have different hole sizes. But even then, some of the holes are only marginally different in size to others. Possibly within the tolerance of making the holes. That is a problem for the suggestion. If a pair of holes are within half a millimeter of one another in diameter, it isn’t apparent that the diameter differences are useful to key another mechanical device to. There are generally a pair of opposite holes that are almost the maximum possible diameter which appear to be fabricated differently to the others - and may be an artefact of the casting process. The entire code wheel thing sounds vastly more complicated than needed and, as noted above, really doesn’t seem to actually need the dodecahedra to work. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2024, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/582 "2024-06-27T19:17:53Z")
I didn’t watch the video. Would the wheels cause a pattern of wear on the dodecahedrons? Is that pattern there? ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2024, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/583 "2024-06-27T20:35:19Z")
The wheels have holes in them which are snapped on over the knobs. I guess there could be some wear on the knobs, to a greater or lesser degree depending on what the wheels are made of. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2024, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/584 "2024-06-27T20:57:52Z")
It’s an utterly bonkers hypothesis, but I can’t help but admire the thought that’s gone into it. A hugely over-engineered solution and overcomplicated method to achieve what is ultimately a fairly simple cipher. If the romans would have used such an encoding protocol, they would have simplified the mechanics of the process way more than that. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2024, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/585 "2024-08-30T01:09:29Z")
[Just posted today](https://youtu.be/RiVH3FiVXL0?si=aozaUEKj2hwUaACB) … interesting to see they were speculating about these nearly 100 years ago! ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2025, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/586 "2025-02-09T01:02:11Z")
A new one found, in England. > **[Another Mysterious Roman Dodecahedron Was Unearthed in England](https://getpocket.com/explore/item/another-mysterious-roman-dodecahedron-has-been-unearthed-in-england?utm_source=firefox-newtab-en-us)** > > More than 100 such ancient artifacts have been found throughout Europe, but nobody knows what they are. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2025, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/587 "2025-02-09T04:44:40Z")
It’s a good article, but it was published a year ago in the Smithsonian: it refers to a dodecahedron unearthed in the Summer of 2023. I did like this quote though: > A huge amount of time, energy and skill was taken to create our dodecahedron, so it was not used for mundane purposes. They are not of a standard size, so will not be measuring devices. They don’t show signs of wear, so they are not a tool. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2025, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/588 "2025-02-09T09:38:21Z")
“Roll for save vs. dagger, Julius.” ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2025, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/589 "2025-02-09T18:18:56Z")
Is the picture the actual find or for illustrative purposes? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2025, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/590 "2025-02-09T18:28:31Z")
I dunno. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2025, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/591 "2025-02-09T18:32:20Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > A huge amount of time, energy and skill was taken to create our dodecahedron, so it was not used for mundane purposes. They are not of a standard size, so will not be measuring devices. They don’t show signs of wear, so they are not a tool. So I can clearly not choose the goblet in front of you! ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2025, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/592 "2025-02-09T18:40:12Z")
The photo in the Pocket article is [this one](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bronze_dodecahedron.jpg) from Wikimedia Commons, which was uploaded in 2018, so is not the recent find. The Pocket article is a copy of [this article](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/another-of-ancient-romes-mysterious-12-sided-objects-has-been-found-in-england-180983632/) in Smithsonian Magazine, which has two photos which do appear to be of the be most recent find. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2025, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/593 "2025-02-09T18:42:16Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > “Roll for save vs. dagger, Julius.” I still do think that the difference in sizes point to an object used as a combination of fortune telling and used on games. While they could be unrelated, I do think that how some uses of similar sized leather dodecahedrons from the recent past centuries from Europe, point to how the items were likely used in ancient roman times. (How the metal ends were used to keep the leather in place deals IMHO with the issue about how the dodecahedrons were able to roll if they were used as fortune telling dice.) [https://www.etsy.com/listing/1502486108/1950s-vintage-italian-leather-and-wood?show\_sold\_out\_detail=1&ref=nla\_listing\_details](https://www.etsy.com/listing/1502486108/1950s-vintage-italian-leather-and-wood?show_sold_out_detail=1&ref=nla_listing_details) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2025, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/594 "2025-02-09T18:45:23Z")
I don’t think a bronze thing the size of a grapefruit makes much sense as a thrown or rolled object (some of them are that big). Also, they don’t typically have any signs of wear, which they would definitely sustain if people were throwing them. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2025, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/595 "2025-02-09T18:46:47Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > I don’t think a bronze thing the size of a grapefruit makes much sense as a thrown or rolled object (some of them are that big) The smallest there allowed then to use less leather, but well to do folks back then were not incapable of showing off their biggest examples of their trade/office. > **[Amazon.com: MegaChess Giant Oversized Premium Complete Set of Chess Pieces with...](https://www.amazon.com/MegaChess-Giant-Premium-Pieces-Complete/dp/B00IIXBFPU)** > > Buy MegaChess Giant Oversized Premium Complete Set of Chess Pieces with 25 Inch Tall King - Black and White: Floor Games - Amazon.com ✓ FREE DELIVERY possible on eligible purchases As they do today with chess. BTW I pointed before at how decorative jewelry pieces of chess are used nowadays, explaining IMHO why one finds very small examples of the dodecahedroms. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2025, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/596 "2025-02-09T18:51:27Z")
What happens if you put a light source inside? Does it project circles and ovals to walls? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2025, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/597 "2025-02-09T18:55:30Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Also, they don’t typically have any signs of wear, which they would definitely sustain if people were throwing them. If they were used only on special fortune telling occasions, and with leather or other material for the faces, the wear would be minimal. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2025, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/598 "2025-02-09T19:10:45Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > What happens if you put a light source inside? Does it project circles and ovals to walls? Sure, if you put a steady, point light source inside. But if there was a light source inside of these, it’d have been a candle or something akin to that, with a flame of decent size and probably flickering. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2025, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/599 "2025-02-09T20:10:29Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > But if there was a light source inside of these, it’d have been a candle or something akin to that, with a flame of decent size and probably flickering. And a candle will leave residue, soot and perhaps wax or tallow, that should still be there on many of them. I don’t know if they’ve examined them for that residue, but I expect any decent archeologist will do that. Non-archeologists might just clean them off and lose any evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2025, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/600 "2025-02-09T20:28:22Z")
I sort of feel like nobody’s yet put in a really serious effort at figuring these out, studying all of the known specimens. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459.md?page=31)