# \[Roman\] Dodecahedrons **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 27, 2023, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459 "2023-02-27T21:46:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2023, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/61 "2023-03-15T13:28:56Z")
There is no reason to think that these were made anywhere but within that region where they have been found and unlikely to be found very far from that region. Their apparent lack of functional value would make it unlikely they’d be transported very far away. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2023, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/62 "2023-03-15T13:57:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > My wife spins and knits Doesn’t she get dizzy? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2023, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/63 "2023-03-15T14:00:25Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > unlikely to be found very far from that region. Why not? They’re certainly extremely portable, and I’ve already discussed in this thread how other _utilitarian_ items in the Roman Empire have Empire-wide occurrence. > [@TriPolar](#): > > Their apparent lack of functional value But you’ve argued _for_ a functional value as candle holders. And your “nobody cared about them” alternative argument is refuted by the circumstances where they occur, as grave goods or with coin hoards. People certainly cared enough about them to be buried with them or hold them with their wealth. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2023, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/64 "2023-03-15T14:44:30Z")
Candle holders are not something you laden yourself with if there are more valuable items to carry. Of course there is a simple counter-argument for someone with a background in the general subject, that would be to show a distribution of small decorative items greater than seen with these. The initial assumption is always that anything found originated where it was found, finding things far from where they originated is the exception. However my conclusions are mainly based on a lack of evidence, more details could be very revealing. The specifics of how they were made could be very telling. Analysis of the metal can reveal a wealth of information because we have so many examples of copper and bronze items from that time. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2023, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/65 "2023-03-15T15:04:10Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Candle holders are not something you laden yourself with if there are more valuable items to carry. Kind of the point, when I’m pointing out that they _were_ treated as valuable. > [@TriPolar](#): > > finding things far from where they originated is the exception I’ve already explained in this thread how the Romans produced items with Empire-wide distribution, from Gazan amphorae finds in Britain to Empire-wide trade in wine, oil and _garum_. The Empire at its height was a cosmopolitan, highly-connected commercial giant. > [@TriPolar](#): > > The specifics of how they were made could be very telling. Analysis of the metal can reveal a wealth of information because we have so many examples of copper and bronze items from that time. Have you followed any of the links I’ve posted today? Analyses of the metals have been done. Radiographic studies of some finds have been done. How these were made, and what they were made of, are no mystery. They’e made of bog-standard casting bronze - quite high in lead, to facilitate flow in the mold. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2023, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/66 "2023-03-15T15:09:53Z")
The different-sized holes makes it seem like they’re an integral part of the objects’ function, but there are some that don’t have holes: [![](https://www.historydefined.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/1920px-2018_Rheinisches_Landesmuseum_Bonn_Dodekaeder__Ikosaeder.jpeg) ](https://www.historydefined.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/1920px-2018_Rheinisches_Landesmuseum_Bonn_Dodekaeder__Ikosaeder.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2023, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/67 "2023-03-15T15:14:54Z")
It’s also (AFAIK) the only _icos_ahedron found. At least, the only one I can find an actual reference for. Interestingly, when it comes to icosahedra, we do know that the Romans used _that_ shape for a “utilitarian” purpose. > **[A Roman rock-crystal icosahedron (20-sided dice) in the Louvre](https://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog/2020/10/13/a-roman-rock-crystal-icosahedron-20-sided-dice-in-the-louvre/)** > > Here’s a pretty image that floats around the web: It’s ancient, and an icosahedron – a 20-sided dice. The Musée du Louvre twitter account (@MuseeLouvre) posted further images of w… This artefact isn’t one of those, obviously, as it has no numbers, and is clearly somehow _related_ to the dodecahedra in form even if it doesn’t have the holes. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2023, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/68 "2023-03-15T15:29:11Z")
I should note that the one without holes is an icosahedron (D20), not a dodecahedron (D12). I couldn’t find a photo of a Roman dodecahedron without holes. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2023, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/69 "2023-03-15T16:00:38Z")
When I see stable rigid objects with holes in it, my intuition is that something is put in those holes and stands up. So I’m inclined to support that candle holder possibility. As to why it only appears in certain areas, perhaps it is a combination of utilitarian and cultural. Why buy an ordinary candle holder when you can buy one that also symbolizes the 12 virtues of Aristotle, or the 12 gods of olympus or whatever? ---
**Author:** ![Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/marvin_the_martian/32/2898_2.png) [@Marvin\_the\_Martian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marvin_the_Martian)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2023, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/70 "2023-03-15T16:55:22Z")
Regarding distribution: what about recycling? The various city-states always seemed to scavenge bronze for cannons when war broke out, to the point of destroying bronze artwork if things were getting desperate. The bronze purchased for Leonardo’s Horse was instead used to make cannons. A trade in used bronze might be profitable around the Mediterranean where it could be transported by ship vs. being carried overland from Northern Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2023, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/71 "2023-03-15T17:05:49Z")
In the hypothetical that these are candle holders restricted to one region of the Roman empire, what did candle holders looks like in other regions? Were other candle holders made in a uniform way, or were there regional variations? ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2023, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/72 "2023-03-15T17:37:29Z")
Wikipedia says “Smaller dodecahedra with the same features (holes and knobs) and made from gold have been found in South-East Asia along the Maritime Silk Road.” I haven’t been able to find details on how big these are, but if they were significantly smaller than the Roman models, that argues against a practical usage and more for a decorative one, as also does the fact that they were made of gold. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2023, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/73 "2023-03-15T20:01:40Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Have you followed any of the links I’ve posted today? No, just now seeing them, except the first one you posted last night. One of my time machines must have worked because somehow I replied to this before you posted it. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2023, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/74 "2023-03-15T20:56:28Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > One of my time machines must have worked because somehow I replied to this before you posted it. Can you use it to go back and ask someone what these damn dodecahedrons are for? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2023, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/75 "2023-03-15T22:13:38Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Can you use it to go back and ask someone what these damn dodecahedrons are for? It’s been unreliable so far. I don’t know how I managed that post. I think Calvin made a better time machine out of a cardboard box. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2023, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/76 "2023-03-16T14:22:56Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > go back and ask someone what these damn dodecahedrons are for Time Traveler - (in latin) Excuse me good sir, what do these dodecahedrons do? Roman Trader - Do? They don’t DO anything. That’s the beauty of it. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2023, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/77 "2023-03-18T21:23:50Z")
To my eye (which we have established to be non-expert) - the articles in that picture really don’t look like they are the same kind of thing. They share some features, but the dodecahedra look like they are tools, instruments, utensils or appliances for some rather exact and possibly businesslike purpose - they have an air of regular, engineered precision to them. The isocahedron looks like a trinket - like a Christmas tree ornament, or a pot-pourri holder, where the decorative appearance is the function; it’s quite a bit more arts-and-crafts than the dodecahedra. ---
**Author:** ![Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/b487fb/32.png) [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walken_After_Midnight)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2023, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/78 "2023-03-18T21:38:21Z")
These Roman dodecahedrons, from the photos at least, don’t appear to have different-sized holes, unlike some of the others seen. [![](https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2018/09/1200/675/bb3c88e6-Roman-Dodecahedron.jpg?ve=1&tl=1) ](https://a57.foxnews.com/static.foxnews.com/foxnews.com/content/uploads/2018/09/1200/675/bb3c88e6-Roman-Dodecahedron.jpg?ve=1&tl=1) [![](https://gazette-eu-west2.azureedge.net/media/88126/img_10-5.jpg?width=696&mode=max&bgcolor=fff&updated=01%2f23%2f2023+11%3a52%3a27&webp=false) ](https://gazette-eu-west2.azureedge.net/media/88126/img_10-5.jpg?width=696&mode=max&bgcolor=fff&updated=01%2f23%2f2023+11%3a52%3a27&webp=false) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2023, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/79 "2023-03-18T21:41:09Z")
In particular, the faces of the icosohedron aren’t flat. Also, I can’t rule out that the beading on the edges is an artifact of the technique used to join the faces, but it looks purely decorative, and the central circle on each face isn’t perfectly centered, like they are for the dodecahedrons. > [@Walken\_After\_Midnight](#): > > These Roman dodecahedrons, from the photos at least, don’t appear to have different-sized holes, unlike some of the others seen. Man, why can’t the owners of these things post precise measurements? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2023, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/80 "2023-03-18T22:01:03Z")
However, I could imagine all of these objects being the same general thing, if that thing was the output of a task to properly interpret a written description for the design of a metal object. A practical exam for metalworkers: “Make a hollow metal shape of regular form with twelve faces; in each face will be cut a hole, of these sizes, encircled by an engraved line, and surrounded by engraved circles; on each corner shall be a knob” - or something like that. Depending on the competence of the individual, some people would make wildly different things. But I think it would be reasonable to expect to find a surviving example of the written description somewhere, if that were the case. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459.md?page=5)