# \[Roman\] Dodecahedrons **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 27, 2023, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459 "2023-02-27T21:46:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 51
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2025, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1001 "2025-08-24T02:06:27Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > The absence of wooden [whatevers] today says very little about whether there were or were not wooden [whatevers] way back then. That’s true, but carving those dodecahedra out of wood would be a bitch. ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2025, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1002 "2025-08-24T02:18:11Z")
Agreed. Same for bone, if you could even find a solid piece of bone large enough to start with. And I’ve little experience with firing ceramics, but it seems to me that it would be difficult to make such a shape out of ceramic as well. However any of these would be much easier if you first created 12 finished faces and then joined them together. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2025, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1003 "2025-08-24T02:43:56Z")
Examples like that is what convinced me that there was a game/augur connection for the dodecahedrons. I think I already pointed at how in modern times Chess (for example) is not just a game, one can find [smaller, more valuable](https://www.1stdibs.com/jewelry/bracelets/link-bracelets/18k-yellow-gold-wide-chess-piece-link-bracelet-rubies-sapphires/id-j_14470972/?gad_campaignid=21358976602) chess pieces used as jewelry nowadays. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2025, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1004 "2025-08-24T03:04:06Z")
> [@Retzbu\_Tox](#): > > There is an image going around on Reddit and Facebook with the following caption: _A gold necklace discovered in Hepu Han Dynasty cemetery. 206 BCE-220 CE, now housed at the Hepu Han Dynasty Cultural Museum in China._ > > I have not yet found an actual cite that confirms this. Seems to be legit. Here’s an article from 2010. > **[Treasures of Han Dynasty found in SW China - China.org.cn](http://www.china.org.cn/photos/2010-06/12/content_20246984.htm)** ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2025, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1005 "2025-08-24T04:35:47Z")
Do things like this convince you that screwdrivers, spark plugs and ignition keys are for use in games or augury and don’t have a practical use? [![](https://www.garagegirlsjewelry.com/cdn/shop/products/20170410_175334_jpg_480x.webp?v=1648752288) ](https://www.garagegirlsjewelry.com/cdn/shop/products/20170410_175334_jpg_480x.webp?v=1648752288) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2025, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1006 "2025-08-24T04:45:32Z")
There are kid toys like that.. But the thing is that about augur tools/dice, there are ancient references to icosahedron dice used for divination. Used by the ancient Romans. And metal specimens engraved with circles on their sides and with spherical studs in the corners, like the dodecahedrons, have been found. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2025, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1007 "2025-08-24T05:29:40Z")
From @Peter_Morris’s great cite, emphasis added: > According to the Han Shu Record, or the History of the Imperial Han Dynasty, Hepu port is the **starting port of the marine silk road** , said Xiong Zhaoming, head of the archeological team. Hundreds of tombs, kilns and cities have been excavated in Hepu since the 1950s, and tens of thousands of cultural relics, including colored glazes, ambers, agates, crystals, turquoises and golden accessories in Indian style and Greek style, have been unearthed. All the discoveries are related to the **flourishing overseas trading** in the Han Dynasty.[Xinhua] Wiki: [Maritime Silk Road - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_Silk_Road) ; 2nd century BCE to 15th century CE. Linked China, SE Asia, India, the Middle East, Africa, Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2025, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1008 "2025-08-24T07:31:20Z")
The bronze objects aren’t especially strong though. The tool hypotheses (indeed any utility hypotheses) really need some evidence in the form of variation and precursors and alternative versions. In the absence of that, we get hypotheses that have to be tortured to fit the very specific physical description and properties of the objects. Everyone who has an explanation (and I’m not excluding my own attempts) seems to have gone way to deep into ‘fitting’, to the extent that a working explanation _works_, but is not a thing people would do - like, someone would just have said ‘guys, guys, we could just use a rock with a hole drilled in it!‘ ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2025, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1009 "2025-08-24T13:40:12Z")
If anything the gold necklace reinforces the decorative notion of the dodecahedrons. The design of the necklace objects is a set of rings welded together with spheres added to the vertices. It isn’t the same construction as the Roman objects. But is pretty, and not huge leap to imagine parallel evolution of the basic form. We run up against the same problem in every discussion. There are only five Platonic solids. The space within which designers and makers have to work is very limited. Once you decide a geometrical object is a cool idea, rather than something more free form or perhaps derived from nature, options close quickly. Similarly, practical objects that demand a Platonic solid tend to run out after the cube. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2025, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1010 "2025-08-24T14:21:03Z")
Caltrops are about the only utilitarian version of tetrahedrons that I can think of offhand. ---
**Author:** ![Retzbu\_Tox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/retzbu_tox/32/11829_2.png) [@Retzbu\_Tox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Retzbu_Tox)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2025, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1011 "2025-08-24T14:41:38Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > There are kid toys like that.. > > But the thing is that about augur tools/dice, there are ancient references to icosahedron dice used for divination. Used by the ancient Romans. And metal specimens engraved with circles on their sides and with spherical studs in the corners, like the dodecahedrons, have been found. The [Geneva zodiac die](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/242) is discussed in a previous post. It’s probably a couple hundred years newer than Gallo-Roman dodecahedrons, it’s made of silver-plated lead and is solid, not hollow, with no knobbed vertices. Linking it to to Gallo-Roman dodecahedrons still seems tenuous to me. The [Pompeiian Sorceress Kit](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/241) post upthread has a corroded green doodad with studs. Vesuvius erupted in 79AD, so that artifact would be fairly contemporaneous with Gallo-Roman dodecahedrons, but it would not work well as a die. It’s kind of flat and has no markings. If you have seen other polyhedral divination artifacts, could you point us to images or sites for them? ---
**Author:** ![Retzbu\_Tox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/retzbu_tox/32/11829_2.png) [@Retzbu\_Tox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Retzbu_Tox)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2025, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1012 "2025-08-24T14:57:20Z")
> [@Francis\_Vaughan](#): > > If anything the gold necklace reinforces the decorative notion of the dodecahedrons. The design of the necklace objects is a set of rings welded together with spheres added to the vertices. It isn’t the same construction as the Roman objects. But is pretty, and not huge leap to imagine parallel evolution of the basic form. This [crappy polyhedron](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/239) mentioned in a previous post sort of bridges the gap between the Asian gold beads and Gallo-Roman dodecahedrons. It’s soldered together from rings and balls, but is allegedly a Gallo-Roman artifact. It does not represent a Platonic solid, since it has 18 sides. I find mention of it on antiquities auction sites (Rhea Gallery and Giquello), but I don’t know why they think it is Gallo-Roman. They don’t say where it was found or how it was dated. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2025, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1013 "2025-08-24T15:15:38Z")
> [@Retzbu\_Tox](#): > > The [Geneva zodiac die](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/242) is discussed in a previous post. It’s probably a couple hundred years newer than Gallo-Roman dodecahedrons, it’s made of silver-plated lead and is solid, not hollow, with no knobbed vertices. Linking it to to Gallo-Roman dodecahedrons still seems tenuous to me. Uh, that is not the one I was referring to, this was linked at early in this thread by you: > [@\[Roman\] Dodecahedrons](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/174): > > I find it interesting, although perhaps irrelevant or insignificant, that while the dodecahedrons have twelve different sized holes, the icosahedron in the image has twelve different sized knobs. Does anyone know if this was typical? [[image] ](https://www.historydefined.net/wp-content/uploads/2022/07/1920px-2018_Rheinisches_Landesmuseum_Bonn_Dodekaeder__Ikosaeder.jpeg) “no knobbed vertices” ?? ---
**Author:** ![Retzbu\_Tox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/retzbu_tox/32/11829_2.png) [@Retzbu\_Tox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Retzbu_Tox)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2025, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1014 "2025-08-24T15:56:01Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > “no knobbed vertices” ?? The zodiac 12-sided die in Geneva has no knobs. The Gallo-Roman icosahedron (20-sided polygon) does have knobs. I have no argument against the zodiac die potentially being used for divination, but I think that there is a weak case for linking it to Gallo-Roman dodecahedrons. I see strong similarities between the icosahedron and Gallo-Roman dodecahedrons, but don’t see anything obvious about the icosahedron that ties it to divination. The circle designs on it are similar to Roman dice markings, but it sure wouldn’t roll very well. ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2025, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1015 "2025-08-24T16:05:15Z")
I hesitate to post this, because I haven’t read the whole thread yet (I’m somewhere past 800) but I wonder if the lack of labeling on the sides might point towards the use in fortune telling? If the one asking was asked to set the gizmo on a table or such, with the face uppermost being of ‘significance’, lacking any easily seen label keeps them from influencing the meaning. Whether it was an easily interpreted sign (a rabbit meaning fertility?) or just some symbol (two wavy lines means success in a business venture) the ‘secret’ could quickly become known to the clientele. Of course, if the seer was purely – or mostly – a deliberate charlatan, the lack of visible markings allows him to say “Ah, the Gods say you are currently facing a difficulty that is worrying you, but be assured that through your rightful actions you will win through to a satisfactory ending.” or whatever applicable to every single person guff they want to push. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2025, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1016 "2025-08-24T16:18:35Z")
> [@Retzbu\_Tox](#): > > I see strong similarities between the icosahedron and Gallo-Roman dodecahedrons, but don’t see anything obvious about the icosahedron that ties it to divination. The circle designs on it are similar to Roman dice markings, but it sure wouldn’t roll very well. As pointed before, it is likely that something else was added to the dice that was kept in place by the knobs when the ritual fate or augurs were being made. IMHO leather or other material then padded the sides and allowed it to roll better. And: As I linked before, regular 6 sided dice with similar markings were (besides gambling) also used for fortune telling, and they rolled really bad. As pointed before, Romans did not know much about probability and also: that Romans did not care much about dice not rolling well. ---
**Author:** ![Retzbu\_Tox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/retzbu_tox/32/11829_2.png) [@Retzbu\_Tox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Retzbu_Tox)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2025, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1017 "2025-08-24T16:31:46Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > But the thing is that about augur tools/dice, there are ancient references to icosahedron dice used for divination. Used by the ancient Romans. The Metropolitan Museum of Art has an [article](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/551072&ved=2ahUKEwi-5oDF6KOPAxULMtAFHX_vDxkQFnoECBcQAQ&sqi=2&usg=AOvVaw35TCrWhznmZGrLjNWMTsC6) about icosahedral (20-sided) dice with Greek or Latin numbers, and there are images of a few. The assumption is that they were for gaming or gambling, but maybe for divination. The article also mentions one from Egypt with symbols for gods on it. The Gallo-Roman dodecahedrons would not roll like dice and don’t have markings that anyone has identified as being useful for divination (or gaming or gambling or writing secret codes). It’s difficult to make a case for them being a divination implement (or serving any other purpose, either) without finding one in a context that makes it obvious what they were for, or finding some other evidence (a book, a drawing, etc) that confirms one of the various theories for their use. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2025, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1018 "2025-08-24T16:32:13Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > I hesitate to post this, because I haven’t read the whole thread yet (I’m somewhere past 800) but I wonder if the lack of labeling on the sides might point towards the use in fortune telling? If the one asking was asked to set the gizmo on a table or such, with the face uppermost being of ‘significance’, lacking any easily seen label keeps them from influencing the meaning. Whether it was an easily interpreted sign (a rabbit meaning fertility?) or just some symbol (two wavy lines means success in a business venture) the ‘secret’ could quickly become known to the clientele. I do think that there was a reason for many dodecahedrons having holes of different sizes, if something was covering them, the marks, I mean the clients could not notice the side that augurs aimed for. I do think that fortune tellers knew what was the most likely side that was going to end on top. Then, like it is now with many fortune tellers and carnies, a bit of shenanigans like that took place to influence the prevalence of **good** augurs, no need for fancy interpretations for the meaning of your fortune. Unless the roll gave them a very bad symbol even when it was less likely; then, depending on the customer, some fancy explanations were provided. ---
**Author:** ![Retzbu\_Tox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/retzbu_tox/32/11829_2.png) [@Retzbu\_Tox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Retzbu_Tox)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2025, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1019 "2025-08-24T16:42:19Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > As pointed before, it is likely that something else was added to the dice that was kept in place by the knobs when the ritual fate or augurs were being made. If they had a covering with different symbols on the faces, I would suggest the Getty Museum’s Gallo-Roman aryballos as a starting point for considering what the symbols could have been. The aryballos has things like flowers, fish, and birds on the different pentagonal panels. > **[Aryballos Body (The J. Paul Getty Museum Collection)](https://www.getty.edu/art/collection/object/107VVJ)** > > Aryballos Body (The J. Paul Getty Museum Collection); A.D. 70–100; Unknown; Bronze with red and blue champlevé enamel; Object (Without Handle): 10.5 cm (4 1/8 in.); 96.AC.190.a ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2025, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1020 "2025-08-24T16:44:59Z")
> [@Retzbu\_Tox](#): > > The Gallo-Roman dodecahedrons would not roll like dice and don’t have markings that anyone has identified as being useful for divination (or gaming or gambling or writing secret codes). As it was linked before, Romans did not care about the fortune implements (that did include regular dice BTW) rolling a lot, the impression I got after reading how irregular dice were in those days, is that Romans did see that irregularity **and lack of much rolling** as a given or as part of one’s fate. > **[Why Ancient Romans Used Twisted Dice](https://english.aawsat.com/home/article/3805846/why-ancient-romans-used-twisted-dice)** > > A pair of researchers from the Universities of California and Drew, believe they may have solved the mystery of why people living during the time of the Roman Empire used lopsided dice in their games. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459.md?page=50) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459.md?page=52)