# \[Roman\] Dodecahedrons **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 27, 2023, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459 "2023-02-27T21:46:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 52
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2025, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1021 "2025-08-24T17:21:29Z")
> [@Francis\_Vaughan](#): > > Once you decide a geometrical object is a cool idea, rather than something more free form or perhaps derived from nature Once again: dodecahedrons _ **are** _ a naturally-occurring shape. [![](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/52/e8/f4/52e8f40a82edcf520109d57902f2bad2.jpg) ](https://i.pinimg.com/736x/52/e8/f4/52e8f40a82edcf520109d57902f2bad2.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2025, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1022 "2025-08-24T17:30:43Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > regular 6 sided dice with similar markings were (besides gambling) also used for fortune telling, and they rolled really bad. As pointed before, Romans did not know much about probability and also: that Romans did not care much about dice not rolling well. Side question about probability: if I had a die and I wanted to test just how crappy it was, I would want to roll it multiple times and track how often different faces came up. How many rolls would give me a reasonable measure of about how often each face would come up? (Sigma to some level). > [@MrDibble](#): > > Once again: dodecahedrons _ **are** _ a naturally-occurring shape. Fun fact: pyrite is naturally cubical in it’s crystal lattice. The occurrence of dodecahedral pyrite crystals is a phenomenon known as [pyritohedral symmetry](https://polytope.miraheze.org/wiki/Pyritohedron), where basically what would be each square face of a cube is replaced with two pentagonal faces, producing a pseudo-pentagonal crystal. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2025, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1023 "2025-08-24T18:48:05Z")
Assuming you meant to say ‘pseudo-dodecahedral’, pyrite crystals _are_ real dodecahedra. Just not _regular_ dodecahedra. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2025, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1024 "2025-08-24T18:51:54Z")
I meant that they do not have true internal icosahedral symmetry like a quasi-crystal. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 24, 2025, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1025 "2025-08-24T19:21:37Z")
> [@Francis\_Vaughan](#): > > Similarly, practical objects that demand a Platonic solid tend to run out after the cube. Well, if you count dice as “practical objects”. Though those don’t actually demand Platonic solids, either: Catalan solids, dipyramids, and deltoidohedra also work, as well as various distortions of those. Or, heck, little plastic pigs, if you’re not concerned about your dice being “fair”. > [@Lumpy](#): > > Side question about probability: if I had a die and I wanted to test just how crappy it was, I would want to roll it multiple times and track how often different faces came up. How many rolls would give me a reasonable measure of about how often each face would come up? Depends on how much crappiness you’re willing to tolerate. Is it OK if one side comes up 10% more than others? 1%? 0.001%? The more precision you want, the more rolls it will take to be confident you have that precision. > [@Lumpy](#): > > Fun fact: pyrite is naturally cubical in it’s crystal lattice. The occurrence of dodecahedral pyrite crystals is a phenomenon known as [pyritohedral symmetry](https://polytope.miraheze.org/wiki/Pyritohedron), where basically what would be each square face of a cube is replaced with two pentagonal faces, producing a pseudo-pentagonal crystal. There’s a whole two-parameter family of shapes made up of twelve identical faces. The Platonic dodecahedron and the rhombic dodecahedron are both members of this family, and the cube and tetrahedron are degenerate members, too (where multiple faces end up flat to each other and so merge into a single face). I made a [3D model](https://www.tinkercad.com/things/7NJ8ABYpgU7-d12-family) of representative members of the family. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2025, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1026 "2025-08-25T16:34:35Z")
I have no trouble imagining them to be game pieces or fortune telling devices but I’m having trouble reconciling the holes on the various sides being marginally different sizes with ease of play or divination. When tossing dice, it’s very easy to see what number comes up. With these, it would be quite difficult at a glance to determine which size hole was up. I believe the holes being slightly differing sizes has a more important function than just telling you which side is up. ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2025, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1027 "2025-08-25T18:14:17Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > With these, it would be quite difficult at a glance to determine which size hole was up. I believe the holes being slightly differing sizes has a more important function than just telling you which side is up. It’s speculated, by me, that the faces might have been covered with richly decorated parchment (or bark, etc) with those materials having long disintegrated from the artifacts. I’ll bet there’s an intact one in a bog or under something somewhere. Well, not bet. Hope hard, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2025, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1028 "2025-08-25T18:37:16Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > I have no trouble imagining them to be game pieces or fortune telling devices but I’m having trouble reconciling the holes on the various sides being marginally different sizes with ease of play or divination. IMHO, the augur did cover the sides with a removable piece, made of leather or other material that can be cut into a continuous piece. [https://www.twinkl.ch/resource/dodecahedron-3d-shape-net-us-m-1652381495](https://www.twinkl.ch/resource/dodecahedron-3d-shape-net-us-m-1652381495) That then was likely hold in place over the dodecahedron with loops or holes over the studs. That would BTW make it a bit more easy to roll, my theory is than the augur knew about where the bigger holes were located (less weight), and made sure that (depending on the customer) the side that the augur preferred was the one that likely ended on top. A cover with painted images or writing could also hide weights added inside the dodecahedron, virtually ensuring that what the augur wanted came on top, specially for a very important customer. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2025, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1029 "2025-08-25T18:42:07Z")
> [@jnglmassiv](#): > > It’s speculated, by me, that the faces might have been covered with richly decorated parchment (or bark, etc) with those materials having long disintegrated from the artifacts. Well, I also proposed that earlier too. I do agree with that part were you hope that we get lucky and find a specimen or pieces preserved on or next to the dodecahedrons. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2025, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1030 "2025-08-25T19:09:27Z")
Of course, now that I was wondering, what if one’s theory is correct? Well, if there is little evidence coming from the digs, one should check at least how ancient Romans did hold pieces of clothing, leather, etc. Just now, the candle lighted over my head. (Yes it should be an LED light bulb now, but we are in Ancient Rome 🙂 ) So, one of the most popular ways to hold pieces of leather or wool in ancient Rome, was with a fibula. > **[Fibula (brooch)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibula_(brooch))** > > A fibula (/ˈfɪbjʊlə/, pl.: fibulae /ˈfɪbjʊli/) is a brooch or pin for fastening garments, typically at the right shoulder. The fibula developed in a variety of shapes, but all were based on the safety-pin principle. Unlike most modern brooches, fibulae were not only decorative; they originally served a practical function: to fasten clothing for both sexes, such as dresses and cloaks. > In English, "fibula" is a word not used for modern jewellery, but by archaeologists, who also use "brooch", espec... And yes, a good number of those are metal pieces with rounded studs, similar to the studs in the dodecahedrons. Incidentally, the fibula was in part a pin, but then the studs likely had another reason to be, as I propose, as a part that allowed the wearer to make adjustments. And while looking at the uses of the round studs in a fibula I ran into this: [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Fibulae02.JPG) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Fibulae02.JPG) That 2nd piece from the right is reported to be from the 8th century, while the dodecahedrons came from the 2nd to the 4th centuries, notice the round studs and the concentric circle symbols! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2025, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1031 "2025-08-25T20:58:07Z")
A deliberately-biased die would explain differently-sized holes, but it wouldn’t explain all of the holes being different-sized. If that was the purpose, then you’d want one side with no hole at all, to maximize the weight that was down, and all the other sides with holes as big as you could get away with without the thing falling apart. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 25, 2025, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1032 "2025-08-25T21:57:18Z")
[Wedgwood (2023)](https://academic.oup.com/book/46592/chapter-abstract/409999353?redirectedFrom=fulltext) describes one ancient interpretation of **concentric circles** , as posited by the 2nd century CE Stoic philosopher Hierocles: > Hierocles, a Stoic of the second century ce, famously deployed an image of the ‘concentric circles’ that surround each of us. … Instead, it is designed to illustrate how it is ‘appropriate to act’ in certain cases. … According to his view, each of us has a duty of mutual aid towards every other human being—but a weightier duty towards those who are socially closer than those who are more distant. The fundamental principle is that each of us has the duty of being an ‘ally’ of every other human being in serving the natural purposes of all the circles to which we and that other human being both belong. Wiki elaborates: > Hierocles describes individuals as consisting of a series of circles: the first circle is the human mind, next comes the immediate family, followed by the extended family, and then the local community. Next comes the community of neighbouring towns, followed by your country, and finally the entire human race. Our task, according to Hierocles was to draw the circles in towards the centre, transferring people to the inner circles, making all human beings part of our concern. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2025, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1033 "2025-08-26T19:17:24Z")
We’ve covered concentric circle symbology before, a couple of times: > [@MrDibble](#): > > Circle+dot symbols are also common religious/metaphysical symbols from the time, including in Neoplatonism (the [Monad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_(philosophy))) and Egyptian polytheism (Sun symbol). As a symbol, concentric circles goes [way, way back](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cup_and_ring_mark). And functionally, they are, of course, very easy to make consistently with very simple tools. > [@MrDibble](#): > > Concentric circle decoration have been pervasive in Western Europe since the Stone Age. As I pointed out in this thread before, it’s a motif that was used in [petroglyphs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cup_and_ring_mark) then, later to decorate Cypriot [pottery](https://www.britishmuseum.org/collection/term/x14739), and damn straight, the Gallo-Romans used it - here it is on a [mirror](https://www.alamy.com/round-bronze-mirror-the-back-is-decorated-with-a-circle-along-the-edge-at-4-places-for-decoration-concentric-circles-mirror-metal-bronze-roman-1-300-netherlands-gelderland-nijmegen-nijmegen-hees-image344479915.html), here on a [fibula](https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/203980559057), here on some [belt stiffeners](http://www.roman-artifacts.com/Military%20Accessories/5th%20Century%20Belt%20pieces/5th%20Century%20Belt%20pieces.htm)… > > And while I was getting those, I see Mangetout also provided plenty of examples > [@GIGObuster](#): > > That 2nd piece from the right is reported to be from the 8th century, while the dodecahedrons came from the 2nd to the 4th centuries 8th centure _BCE_. Note that that is literally _one thousand years_ of separation. _And_ that fibula is _Phrygian_, which is a completely different culture from Gaulish _or_ Roman. Not even the same continent. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2025, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1034 "2025-08-26T19:47:14Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Incidentally, the fibula was in part a pin, but then the studs likely had another reason to be, as I propose, as a part that allowed the wearer to make adjustments. The knobs are just decoration - they appear on plenty of other Phrygian artefacts, so clearly not serving a utilitarian function unique to fibulae. And there’s an evolution of them over time on Phrygian fibulae, from simple to more complex to _disappearing completely_ by the Classical period - _way_ before the Roman Empire. It’s likely they derive from the earlier Near Eastern decorating technique of rivets and studs. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2025, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1035 "2025-08-26T20:29:17Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The knobs are just decoration > **[Bow Fibula | The Walters Art Museum](https://art.thewalters.org/object/54.2445/)** > Bow fibulae are also called “digitated” fibulae, due to the radiating knobs that resemble fingers or digits; over time, their style changed. While the knobs of early (4th-century) fibulae were **functional** (holding the springs of the pin), they later became purely decorative. Incidentally, I do agree that what I said is just one theory of many, and I do take other evidence into account, I do think that a design that had so many similarities to the dodecahedrons deserves to be looked at, it might still point to the dodecahedrons to be more like a decoration item rather that an auger tool. Because there is a military connection, it could be that the dodecahedrons were just a fancy attachment or holder of leather and other armor that became a rage in those centuries for the high rank military guys or the elites then. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2025, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1036 "2025-08-27T05:48:27Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > While the knobs of early (4th-century) fibulae were **functional** The one you were talking about was NOT an early fibula. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > I do think that a design that had so many similarities to the dodecahedrons deserves to be looked at, You can _start_ by explaining the hundreds of years of time and the thousand miles of geography gaps between the one and the other. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2025, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1037 "2025-08-27T22:18:03Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The knobs are just decoration If that’s true, where are the undecorated versions? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2025, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1038 "2025-08-28T05:00:48Z")
Here > **[Fibula - Phrygian - Iron Age - The Metropolitan Museum of Art](https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/325946)** and here > **[Phrygian fibula from the Hattatt collection](https://www.alteroemer.de/en/phrygian-fibula-hattatt-ar3161c.html)** > > Bronze fibula from Anatolia around the time of King Midas. The piece is published in two standard works and was on loan to the Ashmolean Museum. and just for comparison alongside knob-decorated ones, here: > **[Bonhams : Thirteen Phrygian and Western Asiatic bronze fibulae 13](https://www.bonhams.com/auction/31413/lot/165/thirteen-phrygian-and-western-asiatic-bronze-fibulae-13/)** > > Circa 8th-4th Century B.C. Including examples with semi-circulars bows with applied domed studs, a bent arm fibula, and other bow brooches 3cm-10cm wide (13) Lots more where that came from. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2025, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1039 "2025-08-28T15:53:23Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Lots more where that came from. I apologize if I’m misunderstanding your post. But I meant, if the knobs are just decorative, where are the stand alone dodecahedrons with no (decorative} knobs. As an example, here’s another item in the plain and decorative versions. [Candleholder plain](https://www.target.com/p/ceramic-taper-candle-holder-sour-cream-hearth-38-hand-8482-with-magnolia/-/A-93551271?sid=309S&afid=google&TCID=OGS&CPNG=Home+Decor&adgroup=324-0) [Candleholder with decorations](https://www.walmart.com/ip/ifundom-Tapered-Candlesticks-Iron-Home-Table-Decor-1Pack/17387711892?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=101566330&selectedOfferId=91A1FC2622403FE09D670AB3038E9C42&conditionGroupCode=1&gclsrc=aw.ds&&adid=2222222222791A1FC2622403FE09D670AB3038E9C42_166895153518_21585749480&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=709683239654&wl4=pla-2340372785457&wl5=9031752&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=5331037964&wl11=online&wl12=91A1FC2622403FE09D670AB3038E9C42&veh=sem&gad_source=1&gad_campaignid=21585749480&gbraid=0AAAAADmfBIq1b6Sy8utm_T6ftBTLbIBMA&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIq_z9v-2tjwMVuxitBh0eNTTtEAQYASABEgI2-PD_BwE) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2025, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1040 "2025-08-28T16:09:58Z")
> [@Lucas\_Jackson](#): > > I apologize if I’m misunderstanding your post. You are. When I said ‘just decorative’ I was talking about knobs on Phrygian fibulae. Dodec knobs may well have had some function, even if only as legs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459.md?page=51) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459.md?page=53)