# \[Roman\] Dodecahedrons **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 27, 2023, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459 "2023-02-27T21:46:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 53
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2025, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1041 "2025-08-28T16:10:24Z")
I like the idea that the dodecs were normally covered in leather or cloth. Most likely leather. And that the knobs were there to anchor the leather. Holes in the leather at the appropriate spots would let the leather be stretched across each face. In other words, the dodecs are just an interior framework for the object. The holes being different sizes would be irrelevant, since they would be covered in normal use. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2025, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1042 "2025-08-28T16:10:29Z")
Noted, apologies. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2025, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1043 "2025-08-28T16:24:35Z")
Why would a leather dodecahedron need an internal frame? And if so, why always and only hollow bronze? Why would you decorate the surface of the dodecahedron with circle designs if you were going to cover it? And why have we not found any of these leather coverings, not even scraps, even in situations where other organic stuff was preserved alongside the dodecahedra, like Thames or well finds? ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2025, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1044 "2025-08-28T16:55:09Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Why would a leather dodecahedron need an internal frame? Because leather doesn’t form a dodecahedron on its own. > [@MrDibble](#): > > And if so, why always and only hollow bronze? The hollow part is easy: metal of all types was expensive back then, so they’d want to minimalize the amount. That would also help explain the holes. The metal drilled out could be remelted for other purposes. Why always bronze? OK, that’s a weakness of the idea. > [@](#): > > Why would you decorate the surface of the dodecahedron with circle designs if you were going to cover it? OK, another weakness. But those circles seem to be rather minimal decorations, so it’s not like they spent a lot of effort on decorating. > [@](#): > > And why have we not found any of these leather coverings, not even scraps, even in situations where other organic stuff was preserved alongside the dodecahedra, like Thames or well finds? AIUI, most of the dodecs have no provenance. That is, we don’t know what situation they were found in, what else was near them, etc. People who found them were not archeologists, so they had no reason to document their find. So there could have been some leather scraps that were disposed of by the finders. Another thing is that we don’t know what happened to the dodecs over their history. They could have passed through several people’s hands before being ultimately disposed of in burials or whatever. The later possessors may not have put leather on them, just kept them as interesting trinkets or something. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2025, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1045 "2025-08-28T17:27:40Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > Because leather doesn’t form a dodecahedron on its own. It very well can… [![](https://dlecocq.github.io//maketry/assets/2016/06/dodecahedron-purse/01.jpg) ](https://dlecocq.github.io//maketry/assets/2016/06/dodecahedron-purse/01.jpg) > [@dtilque](#): > > most of the dodecs have no provenance Most. But _none_ have been found with even a trace of leather scraps on their knobs or leather coverings anywhere near them, and no leather covers that would fit a dodecahedron have turned up.. > [@dtilque](#): > > there could have been some leather scraps that were disposed of by the finders. There could also have been a complete instruction manual for Care and Feeding of Your Dodecahedron that we’ve lost. Argument from absence is not actually a valid one here. ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2025, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1046 "2025-08-28T17:43:34Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It very well can… I notice a certain amount of sewing there, in addition to the leather. Perhaps the leather coverings were only placed on the dodecs when in use for rituals, but stored without the leather otherwise. The knobs would allow this to be easily done, whereas sewing the leather would not. This would also explain why no leather scraps have been found with the dodecahedra. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2025, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1047 "2025-08-28T18:23:39Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It very well can… But then it can not be changed, to offer other fates to different customers. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2025, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1048 "2025-08-28T18:26:43Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Most. But _none_ have been found with even a trace of leather scraps on their knobs or leather coverings anywhere near them, and no leather covers that would fit a dodecahedron have turned up.. However, finding an very early example or a brooch with so close of a style \*\* to the dodecahedrons, and related to clothing or tunics, that points to a similar idea used for wearable items. Items that could be exchanged. Notice that I have several theories going on there, I’m willing to drop some once more evidence comes in. . . . \*\* Yes I do take into account what you said, earlier and different centuries, but we are talking about a civilization that just aped many ideas from conquered nations, and borrowed sculpture, architecture, and even gods from Greece from centuries earlier, I would not be surprised that they stole a similar setup/design from an earlier culture. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2025, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1049 "2025-08-28T19:45:28Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > I notice a certain amount of sewing there Yes, that’s usually how you make shapes out of leather. > [@dtilque](#): > > Perhaps the leather coverings were only placed on the dodecs when in use for rituals, but stored without the leather otherwise. Why? _Why_ would you keep putting these covers on and off rather than just leaving them on? And if that was the procedure, how come the knobs don’t show wear-marks? leather is tougher than string. > [@dtilque](#): > > This would also explain why no leather scraps have been found with the dodecahedra. _Or_ anywhere else. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > But then it can not be changed, to offer other fates to different customers. So there are _multiple_ leather covers per dodecahedron now, but none, not a one, ever found? > [@GIGObuster](#): > > finding an very early example or a brooch with so close of a style I think you’re seeing _way_ more of a closeness in style than I am. And only on one fibula - none of the other knobbed fibulae I’ve linked to have the concentric circle decorations, just the knobs. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > related to clothing or tunics The fibulae are - nothing indicates the dodecahedra are related to clothes - no fabric scraps, no wear marks, no pins. No need either, because - get this - the Romans had … _fibulae_. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Notice that I have several theories going on there, I’m willing to drop some once more evidence comes in. You _do_ know what a [Gish Gallop](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop) is, right? Because that’s what you’re basically saying you’re doing. . > [@GIGObuster](#): > > Yes I do take into account what you said, earlier and different centuries, but we are talking about a civilization that just aped many ideas from conquered nations The Roman Empire never conquered that Phrygian culture, they never even encountered it, it was gone long centuries before the time of the dodecahedra. The Romans certainly adopted some Phrygian culture items, like the Phrygian cap and Cybele. The path for their adoption of both of these is hardly obscured (both came via the Greeks, not direct conquest) so why would the fibula-\>dodecahedron transfer be? And - the question we keep returning to - why only in that part of the Empire? > [@GIGObuster](#): > > I would not be surprised that they stole a similar setup/design from an earlier culture. But only in Gallo-Roman areas, and not actually for fibulae, and without any actual similarity in construction… You really can’t just look at a completely unrelated artifact with some superficial decorative similarities _that were common to lots of other artefacts_, go “Aah, they’re both old-timey stuff” and think that makes any connection possible. Once again, I’ll repeat myself - _ **One thousand years and a thousand miles of separation** _, and no bridging artefacts. There’s absolutely no reason to think these things are related. This is “Mayans built pyramids, Egyptians built pyramids, they had to be related” - level thinking ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2025, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1050 "2025-08-28T19:49:40Z")
The object is described as an accessory not a bracelet. Note that the thread supporting the accessory is monofilament. The find is legit, but the provenance of the object lacks detail. Could the small dodecahedrons be free standing or otherwise not related to the accessory? I found the nodules on the dodecahedrons intriguing: they imply that the Chinese artist had some exposure to Roman dodecahedrons (or Asian copies of original Roman dodecahedrons) and moreover that their customer did as well. Not 100% to be sure, but probable I think. If the dodecahedron were military code cyphers, what were they posing as? What’s the messenger’s cover story? I’m thinking ritual object rather than game: they seem a little large to be dice, even if they are fake dice. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2025, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1051 "2025-08-28T19:53:22Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > So there are _multiple_ leather covers per dodecahedron now, but none, not a one, ever found? This was discussed before in this thread too, leather is unlikely to survive under the conditions most of the buried dodecahedrons where found. > **[GUEST POST: Preservation of Leather Artifacts in Archaeology](https://matsukazesewing.blogspot.com/2024/04/guest-post-preservation-of-leather.html)** > > That's right...a rare guest post on Matsukaze workshops; my Apprentice's partner wrote out this gem, and I offered to host it until (and if)... ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2025, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1052 "2025-08-28T19:54:45Z")
And yet we have multiple bits of leather from Roman finds, and _other_ organic matter was found with some of the dodecahedra. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2025, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1053 "2025-08-28T20:04:14Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > The Roman Empire never conquered that Phrygian culture, they never even encountered it, it was gone long centuries before the time of the dodecahedra. > > The Romans certainly adopted some Phrygian culture items, like the Phrygian cap and Cybele. The path for their adoption of both of these is hardly obscured (both came via the Greeks, not direct conquest) so why would the fibula-\>dodecahedron transfer be? > > And - the question we keep returning to - why only in that part of the Empire? Ok, I can grant they were not conquered earlier, but they were a part of the Roman empire by the 2nd century before the common era, I can point to the ways of those days regarding design: reusing themes and styles from the past was also a thing. > **[Egyptomania in Ancient Rome and Gilded Age America | The Art Institute of...](https://www.artic.edu/articles/990/egyptomania-in-ancient-rome-and-gilded-age-america)** > > Fascination with ancient Egypt has inspired artmakers in many places over thousands of years. This article builds on our first in the series—Egyptomania in France—and continues our look at artworks and objects at the Art Institute that reference the... ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2025, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1054 "2025-08-28T20:05:09Z")
Some of the nodes look a lot more something to hitch a string to than something to support an external cover like leather or cloth: [![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Pentagon-dodeca%C3%ABder_in_brons%2C_150_tot_400_NC%2C_vindplaats-_Tongeren%2C_Leopoldwal%2C_1939%2C_collectie_Gallo-Romeins_Museum_Tongeren%2C_4002.jpg/220px-Pentagon-dodeca%C3%ABder_in_brons%2C_150_tot_400_NC%2C_vindplaats-_Tongeren%2C_Leopoldwal%2C_1939%2C_collectie_Gallo-Romeins_Museum_Tongeren%2C_4002.jpg) ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Pentagon-dodeca%C3%ABder_in_brons%2C_150_tot_400_NC%2C_vindplaats-_Tongeren%2C_Leopoldwal%2C_1939%2C_collectie_Gallo-Romeins_Museum_Tongeren%2C_4002.jpg/220px-Pentagon-dodeca%C3%ABder_in_brons%2C_150_tot_400_NC%2C_vindplaats-_Tongeren%2C_Leopoldwal%2C_1939%2C_collectie_Gallo-Romeins_Museum_Tongeren%2C_4002.jpg) The find from the Gallo-Roman Museum in Tongeren, Belgium has varying sized holes and visible decoration limited to lines on the edges of the object. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2025, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1055 "2025-08-28T20:12:44Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Ok, I can grant they were not conquered earlier, but they were a part of the Roman empire by the 2nd century before the common era No. the _region_ of Phrygia was _eventually_ part of the Empire - (but definitely not in 200 BCE - I’ll leave you to figure out why that might be)… Phrygia the _culture_ was long gone, absorbed into the Persian Empire centuries before. Look, I don’t mean to be rude, but it’s screamingly obvious that you’re just running a new Google search every time I respond to you with actual archaeological facts, all to try and defend an original thesis of connection based on nothing of any substance. How do you feel that’s actually adding to the discussion? > [@GIGObuster](#): > > I can point to the ways of those days regarding design: reusing themes and styles from the past was also a thing. I’m not arguing that cultural recycling wasn’t a thing - I’ve pointed to examples of it myself in this very thread. That kind of thing leaves distinct traces and a transfer path. We can see this for Phrygian caps - a whole story of transmission through the centuries. There’s NOTHING like it for the fibulka to dodecahedron case - no chain of artefact from Phrygia to Gaul you can point to at all. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2025, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1056 "2025-08-28T20:14:07Z")
One idea that was proposed, similar to the idea that it was used to make wool gloves, it could had been to weave leather. > **[The Roman Dodecahedron: A 1,600-Year-Old Leatherworking Tool Hiding in Plain...](https://medium.com/@roberthoffer/the-roman-dodecahedron-a-1-600-year-old-leatherworking-tool-hiding-in-plain-sight-05b266146686)** > > By Robert Hoffer I proposed another idea: It was used in a fancy way to decorate (with a connection with ornamental clothing) and/or to keep leather pieces in place for special military occasions, in a style that was only peculiar for the region. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2025, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1057 "2025-08-28T20:18:47Z")
Jesus, that Medium article is completely ridiculous, and clearly written by someone who has never actually done any leatherwork in their life., I mean, this reads like parody: > Modern artisans use tools that closely resemble the Roman dodecahedron: [![](https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:4800/format:webp/1*J7KFEU9i1wwMnS17WM2u1Q.png) ](https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:4800/format:webp/1*J7KFEU9i1wwMnS17WM2u1Q.png) Oh, yes, I totally see the resemblance. So close. Also, there’s absolutely zero evidence of roman woven leather armour. That’s some fantasy bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2025, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1058 "2025-08-28T20:22:52Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > There’s NOTHING like it for the fibulka to dodecahedron case - no chain of artefact from Phrygia to Gaul you can point to at all. I did point to that item because, as it is pointed elsewhere, other minds can help, not only with the ID or more context. After all, one does not know everything, but you have to notice that _I do take what you say into account_, a design that not only appears in that Phrygian Artifact was for sure used later in turkey, because it is really less likely that so peculiar a design was only used in Phygia and then remade just almost like that with the dodecahedrons. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2025, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1059 "2025-08-28T20:23:50Z")
The point was that that was just one idea, I thought the context showed that I did not agree with that. **And just to be sure** : I don’t agree with the idea that the dodecahedrons where used to make gloves either. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2025, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459/1060 "2025-08-28T20:25:40Z")
Gallop, gallop, gallop. Why would you post something with what is a painfully-obvious AI picture that doesn’t actually look like a real dodecahedron? I mean, the thongs are passing through holes in the knobs, FFS. Never mind that whatever insanity is happening with the dodecahedron is completely unrelated to the “woven leather armour” next to it - they’re just magically linked. Never mind that from what I can tell that idiot thinks lorica segmentata was made of shaped leather. All it does is muddy the waters. Seriously, don’t just C&P the first thing Google shows you as though it was contributing to the discussion. It’s not. “Throw shit at the wall and see what sticks” is not how archaeological research is done. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459.md?page=52) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/roman-dodecahedrons/980459.md?page=54)